From last night.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, March 10th, 2010 at 10:16 pm and is filed under blogs, education. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
From last night.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, March 10th, 2010 at 10:16 pm and is filed under blogs, education. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Maybe the message is getting through to NZers.
I agree, very very silly of whoever to do that.
Balance trolling warning Trevor
Hey!
Why has this link disappeared?????
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/03/the_irony-2.html#comments
Cause it shows that labour is hypocritical???
Face up to the music!
No Charles it is on the chicken shanks http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2010/03/10/chicken-shanks/ post three times. Thats where it always was. Tired and emotional?
Trevor – you are an MP and ostensibly an intelligent man. It is not intelligent to publish anything online that you haven’t checked and rechecked and aren’t sure you want out there for everybody to read – forever. It cannot be taken back and it can always be dragged up again. How can you accidentally hit “publish” when your public image is vital to your career and your party’s aspirations? You have already been slapped round the face (metaphorically) several times for your technical “mistakes”. But it’s not that hard, even for you. Just take the time to think before you publish, just like you take the time to think before you speak in the House or in front of a TV camera. It’s easy.
Charles, are you suggesting that it’s ok for katrina to have a poll, advertise her poll, have people respond to her poll, post her poll, but then take it down, for undisclosed reasons (ostensibly because it was overwhelming against one of her party’s main platforms because Trevor has been a hypocrite?
What’s your comment/observation/take on Katrina’s actions?
The govt clearly has no problem stifling the public voice when it speaks out against them – that’s why they do stuff like this and that’s why the bypass select committee when they know people don’t like what they’re doing.
My take is quite simple, substitute katrinas name for trevs name from the chicken shanks page
My post will be up this afternoon after one fact check. Will Katrina’s?
Perhaps a better and far more useful poll for her to put up would be: “do you support the trialling of National Standards”.
Trevor made an honest mistake, just like accidentally hitting send in your emails it can happen easily.
Or if Wellington is getting Wellywood, should the supercity get a neon sign? Then try out various names for this new MonstroCITY.
This is starting to sound like a ‘debate’ in the sixth-form common room with the few spotty teenagers who are interested in politics taking great delight in scoring points off each other. While everyone else looks at them and thinks they should get a life.
I think the lady in question was very unwise to take down a webpage if she did it to mask unexpected / ‘unacceptable’ poll results. But she’d shown her dubious judgement right at the start by putting up such a meaningless poll in the first place. With so few respondents such polls are incredibly unrepresentative and open to skewing. Surely she realised that?
But outside the ‘common room’ no one gives a fig, anyway.
Oh my goodness – would the right take a chill pill! Its all a bit sad really to see them come crawling out in droves to ‘protect’ Katrina – says more about how you are trying to divert attention away from the fact that Nat Stds are a donKEY by bringing up silly things in an attempt to fog the real issue. I agree with above – its very childish. Lets look at the reality of this issue. Some of the comments on Kiwiblog are insulting and gutter trash – at least with the moderation here, people have to learn to play nice. The attempts of the right to throw the toys out of the sandpit is just plain silly. Enter the debate with informed and enlightened discourse – otherwise be prepared to look petty and small minded.
I’m not too phased by Katrina doing the poll then taking it down when the numbers started to work against her as to a degree we all do stuff like that in one way or another – that’s the beauty of being able to edit what you post etc online. Of course it gets tricky when people like Trevor save it & then re-post it or other people record what Trevor may have said and re-post that. Not a fan of tit-for-tat.
What I will say about the polls as that I have a very wide circle of Mum friends and a good proportion of them and their friends have kids in school. Every single Mum that I have spoked to about the National Standards has been in favour and keen to see how it pans out. Yet none have been asked by any MP or gone on a news network or an MPs website to vote. For that matter, neither have I.
So lets keep it in perspective. For a poll to have any real weight it has to have around 1500 respondents otherwise the margin of error is off the charts.
The above poll had 145 respondents which means it has no validity whatsoever.
“The above poll had 145 respondents which means it has no validity whatsoever.” – All the more reason to keep it up there for longer.
Rebecca , good to see your friends will wait and see how ‘it pans out’. The experts say its a mistake , The teachers say its a mistake to do it it the way National is doing it.
But hey you are happy for your kids to be used as guinea pigs.
Remember too the leaky homes was a result of nationals misguided policy. the cost Billions and counting
14 kids died at Cave Creek because of nationals ‘reprioritising’ the public service
Yep and it also puts a big question mark over whether she took it down because 118 people said they didn’t agree. My money is that those at the top including PR decided no her page is not the right forum for it so they took it down, end of story. Trevor is angling for the view that she personally took it down because of 118 people. The issue is a time waster – who really cares. Time will tell whether the NS are worth worrying about.
@ Rebecca
Spinning to suit your perspective doesn’t work. If you and your Mum friends had any sense you would be calling for a trial period to see how it works. That, as you would know, is what the teachers are calling for… a trial period.
I’m sure you’re right. Those at the top decided Shank’s page was not the right forum for it – when they saw the way it was shaping up. If it had remained there may have been 2000+ by now, with around the same percentage ratio!!!
Anne there is no such thing as “spin” when it comes to perspective or perception; it’s all relative to one’s experiences, knowledge, environment and circles.
Further I haven’t stated whether I/we agree with NS rolling out per se or whether I/we prefer a trial period; assumptions are the mother of all evils.
Regardless of which of the two I/we prefer, the fact that I/we – who incidentally are highly educated and have a wealth of experience in both the private & public sectors – agree with a NS of sorts being introduced, is still not what the Labour folk want to hear.
Ghostwalker: don’t sully the grief of those families affected by Cave Creek by bringing it into debate here. My friend was one of the 5 survivors so I take offense to you drawing on it as though it is some kind of political leverage. It is not. That accident happened for a huge variety of reasons, most of which have no relevance whatsoever to this debate.
I see Katrina has now put up a reply regarding her poll results on her own website.
The graph shows the poll was obviously under attack just before it was used here.
A bit of an “own goal really” Not that smart – must be better ways to attack National Standards.
Rob: how INTERESTING that the very technology one might use to undermine the credibility of someone else can also be used to undermine you (as in us all). The graph was VERY interesting….
As for Katrina’s reference to the Mum Tea – dime a dozen unfortunately and it is for those reasons Mums like me are willing to at least see how the NS pan out.
I don’t get whether they are permanent (or permanent for as long as it takes Labour to get back in government – oh, has Labour said they will remove them if voted back in) or merely a trial, I just like the idea of having a yard stick for ALL schools and ALL teachers.
Ah Rob, that must be it. The poll was highjacked and so she removed it to be sure it wasn’t wrong used, how community minded of Katrina.
She could have just posted the results with a note stating it had be hijacked etc etc. Funny she didnt.
Rebecca do you know how widely read your “mum” friends are around the national Standards, both spin and fact?
“education; a man who cannot read will escape most propaganda, as will a man who is not interested in reading. People used to think that learning to read evidenced human progress; they still celebrate the decline of illiteracy as a great victory; they condemn countries with a large proportion of illiterates; they think that reading is a road to freedom. All this is debatable, for the important thing is not to be able to read, but to understand what one reads, to reflect on and judge what one reads. Outside of that, reading has no meaning (and even destroys certain automatic qualities of memory and observation). But to talk about critical faculties and discernment is to talk about something far above primary education and to consider a very small minority. The vast majority of people, perhaps 90% percent, know how to read, but do not exercise their intelligence beyond this. They attribute authority and eminent value to the printed word, or, conversely, reject it altogether. As these people do not possess enough knowledge to reflect and discern, they believe — or disbelieve — in toto what they read. And as such people, moreover, will select the easiest, not the hardest, reading matter, they are precisely on the level at which the printed word can seize and convince them without opposition. They are perfectly adapted to propaganda…”
“The uncultured man cannot be reached by propaganda. Experience and research done by the Germans between 1933 and 1938 showed that in remote areas, where people hardly knew how to read, propaganda had no effect The same holds true for the enormous effort in the Communist world to teach people how to read. In Korea, the local script was terribly difficult and complicated; so, in North Korea, the Communists created an entirely new alphabet and a simple script in order to teach all the people how to read. In China, Mao simplified the script in his battle with illiteracy, and in some places in China new alphabets are being created….”
“it is only normal that the most educated people (intellectuals) are the first to be reached by such propaganda… All this runs counter to pat notions that only the public swallows propaganda. Naturally, the educated man does not believe in propaganda; he shrugs and is convinced that propaganda has no effect on him. This is, in fact, one of his great weaknesses, and propagandists are well aware that in order to reach someone, one must first convince him that propaganda is ineffectual and not very clever. Because he is convinced of his own superiority, the intellectual is much more vulnerable than anybody else to this maneuver…….”
Jaques Ellul Propaganda: The Formation of Men’s Attitudes
Beware the arrogance of the educated. The educated are also the ones who quickly and easily disseminate the misinformation.
@ Rebecca
To suggest there can be no spin to justify one’s chosen perspective is a nonsense. Politicians – of the right in particular – indulge in it all the time.
Btw, I’m well educated, with a wealth of experience in both the public and private sector too – as indeed I suspect are most of the Labour supporting commenters at this site. I am profoundly grateful to past Labour governments for giving me the opportunities in the first place. It is sad to see that so many of our young people are going to be denied those same opportunities by this self serving government.
Tracey they are all well-read and well-informed not only because some are actually teachers & principals, but also because they are interactive and conscientious parents.
You have mentioned earlier that you don’t have any children. This means that your own knowledge by your own admission is theoretical at best.
In my opinion a good working knowledge is best coupled with relevant experience.
“You have mentioned earlier that you don’t have any children. This means that your own knowledge by your own admission is theoretical at best.”
That is a ridiculous conclusion to make Rebecca
First off your accusation presupposes that all parents by virtue of impregnating and giving birth have advanced knowledge of what is best for children. This is part of the crux of the problem with what National is doing. SO many believe they have advanced knowledge of what is best for their childs education despite having little or no knowledge or experience of teaching children, how children learn etc etc.
Everyone has money but they dont all feel qualified to suggest how the finance sector ought to be run. In fact the majority have nothing to say about it. Not so with teachers. Most parents consider themselves experts on teaching and teachers.
Second, I am deemed worthy of contributing to your childrens healthcare and education so I take an interest in it and ensure I am well read around the topic, ever changing as it is. For example I knew long ago that schools already has assessment in pace regardless of whether parents availed themselves of that knowledge or not.
Thirdly By definition, you assume (despite saying you find assumptions abhorrent there is one inherent in your statement to/about me) that an interactive and conscientious parent will actually be reading the “right” stuff to become better informed.
Fourthly ( see my post above about literate people)
Fifthly – Your argument infers that only those with direct experience of something may become knowledgeable or hold a well founded opinion on it. That is patently false…
Of course many people support the National Standards and that is their choice.
May I just clarify
In my opinion teaching is not the same as parenting. Parents may teach, primarily unstructured (that is not according to learned teaching principles and observation of methods) and sadly, many teachers must parent (not part of a job description for a teacher).
We take a sector wherein one size does not fit all (children learn differently from each other, some only have one method of learning some have more than one)and we try to make one size fit all. Because it is cheaper? Easier? IF we go down the line of using one method (learn and regurgitate was the method de jour from my scholling days) we will let down a huge number of our children. Rebecca I say “our” to connote a community interest in all children.
The more I think about the National Standards the more that I understand that this is a whole heap of botched implementation that has been further stuffed by ideology and misinformation to try and support the poor implementation.
If you put the Standards like this – ‘Schools use a wide range of assessment tools and that is fine but it makes it difficult for government to know where we need to allocate resources so we want to get some idea of how schools are doing compared to each other by having a common standard that they report to the Ministry against – a standard that will only be used by the MOE for this purpose – then who would complain? (past a few teachers/schools who didn’t want extra work). Probably no one. It is the BS that Tolley is spouting about poor schools and bad teachers and the NZEI and the PPTA that is really the pain here. It is often untrue, almost always demanding,demeaning, and divisive. My advice to Key is to move her on – begin reframeing what they want to achieve by National Standards and get honest with the people who (in general) work extremely hard to do the very best job they can for their students.
Tracey good parents like me and my friends are worth their weight in gold when it comes to weighing up the pros and cons of such things as the NS.
When it comes to understanding children, how they think, what they need and the effort to meet their needs, a good parent has more knowledge than can ever possibly be gained from doing education 101 or reading the odd article. That is why we are ‘good’ parents and why we have real working knowledge of issues such as the education of our children.
And yes, an interactive conscientious good parent will read the right stuff when it comes to their children’s future. That is not an assumption, that is fact as it is that, along with being Board of Trustees and/or going to the parent teacher meetings, which makes them an interactive and conscientious parent.
To assume you would have a great working knowledge than a parent like this is well, I am sure you are familiar with how ass u me is broken down….
And yes, likewise with the finance sector – a salaried person can’t possibly have the same level of working knowledge of financial policy that the government brings in/proposes as that of a business person who files GST returns, invoices clients, payes their employees, pays ACC etc etc.
People who assume theory has all the answers, well they go and do things like implement DHBs and look how well they have turned out.
Six months Trevor
@Rebecca – I’m well educated, but even if I weren’t I wouldn’t care I know some very intelligent people with street smarts and one of them is illiterate because of dyslexia but is very smart.
I don’t have children, but I don’t need to have any to know when I think something is a lemon. I have my common sense.
I do think that a childless person can have a great working knowledge of children and education. Don’t discriminate against the non breeders. 
I’m leaving this thread has turned ugly.
See ya later Anne 
I’ve been offline for most of the day – I think this is getting to the edge of my comfort zone. Several good people (as far as I can tell from cyber stuff and their history here) with different views strongly held and thats ok. What I’m not as comfortable about is the challenge around who has the right to hold views and relative importance of qualification v parenting. Can we deal with the ideas on here please and leave the other issue for other places.
Thank you.
Trevor while I can understand your discomfort with the direction the debate that Tracey and I have taken it, I still think everything we have said is relevant to this post as the issue is 2-fold: Katrina’s actions (the removal of the poll) and the subject of the poll (namely education).
@ Tracey apologies as I did not intend to discriminate as we need the input of all well-informed citizens whether educated or “street smart” when it comes to government policy; I was merely defending where parents like me are coming from. We make it our business to be well-informed as we take the future of our children very seriously. The National Standards that National are rolling out affect us first and and foremost as it is our children are will be the so-called guinea pigs.
But yes, it is very hard to convey opposing views in a toneless medium such as a blog site.
@ Spud.
Yes, I left for the same reason. As someone who has had three careers, including one which required substantive knowledge of children’s physical and mental well-being, I found some of Rebecca’s comments insulting.
Trevor apologies if this is trolling – not that I really know what that is?
@ Anne my original comment was merely posting my view on the Katrina issue and the NS in general. It was you that took it a step down by stating ” [Rebecca] spinning to suit your perspective doesn’t work. If you and your Mum friends had any sense…” and then Tracey jumped on the bandwagon.
You both chose to jump on my views on the NS instead of my take on the Shanks issue.
Sorry, but fellow post’ers you can not have it both ways. You can not come on here or any internet site and expect to be able to throw around outrageous, unsubstantiated or highly offensive and insulting comments without consequence. People will always feel they have the right of reply and I am one of them.
If you don’t like this, then steer clear as the Labour MPs are at least open to debating with people who prefer to judge each policy on its merits rather than just blindingly supporting the party that is pushing it…
Rebecca, disagreements are fine. Robust debate good. Offensive and personal comments not. We are trying to moderate out these things and encourage poeple to debate cleanly with each other and with us. Clare
Anne said: “To suggest there can be no spin to justify one’s chosen perspective is a nonsense.”
Absolutely correct, of course.
But she then went on to spoil it by adding:
“Politicians – of the right in particular – indulge in it all the time.”
Why the dig at ‘the right’, Anne? It really devalues the comment. All politicians spin. It’s their job. You probably notice it more, and it gets up your nose more, when it’s being done by the opposition, that’s all.
It’s the same as when everyone criticises the editor of a paper, or of the TV news, for being biased. But only on the days when it doesn’t support their side.
Rebecca
I await your comments on the quotes from ellul. You are simply wrong to assume not giving birth makes a person less than a parent when looking at issues around children. *I* never suggested parents were not to be listened to, and wish you could show me where I did.
Sorry Tracey while I found them interesting I have no interest in taking the debate down that track. My comments pertained merely to the things that you and Anne said which implied that as parents – educated or otherwise, we can’t possible have the intellect to decide for ourselves what is right for our children.
George – yes there is always spin in that we are tainted by our own experiences. This is by and large unconscious, but when I read “spin” I read it as Anne stating I was deliberating editing facts to suit my own purpose which was untrue and offensive.
As a parent assessing what is right for my children by way of government policies such as NS I can only go by my own children’s needs, my own education, my own life/work experiences, and the views held by those in my circle such as my Mum friends who are in the same boat. Reading articles etc help keep the bigger picture in perspective but to draw conclusions based largely on personal experiences is of course natural and very human……
Just as it is for Katrina Shanks to pull a poll that has been contaminated by a small number of ‘passionate’ people….
Pollyanna troll comment ahead
It takes a community to raise a child.
Lets all shake hands and move on.
Not as simple as that Monique. More and more the trolls and their acquaintances seem to be hijacking this blog site. That ends up degrading the issues and in a few cases sinks them altogether. That in turn drives away the genuine commenters who – whether they agree or disagree – are more likely to have something worthwhile to say.
@Tracey. Feel the same as you about people assuming not giving birth makes a person less than a parent.
I have raised a child through primary already. My stepdaughter lived with us, moving in at age 5, and due to her Dad working long hours, sometimes had to travel, and more or less wanting to live his life and have people look at him as some hero taking on his daughter now I look back, it was up to me to go to parent teacher interviews, help with homework, and the other parents really did look at me like I didn’t know anything as I wasn’t a ‘real’ parent. I picked her up, I dropped her off, very few parents spoke to me. I was treated like an outsider. We split when she was 13. Shes 15 next week. And no she had no contact with her mother. I was it, shes still with her Dad.
Not the quite the same situation, I was raising a child, but just felt like saying that giving birth doesn’t make you a expert.
I like you, even before she came into our care, followed education policy. I liked to know what was going on as it was a subject that I was interested in, for the same reasons as you.
@Tracey.
First sentence should have read ‘Feel the same as you about people assuming not giving birth makes a person less worthy at giving an opinion on education.
I have gone off topic again but had to fix that error.
@ Trevor – Thankyou!
@ Anne
@Tracey – Agreed.
@M onique – Hi
@ A Mother – aw, you shouldn’t have to justify yourself, you have every right to comment about this.
I thought it was the photo of her with the teenage mothers that Ms Shanks wanted to take down, not the poll (which is probably unscientific and you really have to be lacking a life to be voting on national standards on a poll on a National back benchers website).
Not really keen on this moderation business. Am on your side after all.
Maybe let him out?