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	<title>Comments on: Voters let down by Key? Let me count the ways</title>
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	<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/24/voters-let-down-by-key-let-me-count-the-ways/</link>
	<description>A blog written by Labour MPs</description>
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		<title>By: DWW</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/24/voters-let-down-by-key-let-me-count-the-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-312325</link>
		<dc:creator>DWW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 21:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=38000#comment-312325</guid>
		<description>@David Clark I agree the trend line is clear, but to say that it is a reflection on David Shearer&#039;s leadership is a big jump to make. I do agree that the Govt&#039;s dismal performance reflects in the trend, but given that performance, this trend should be a given and not require analysis. In doing so, it can easily be misconstrued as crowing, even if that was not the intention.

For the record, my explanation for the trend, is that it consistent with most polling trends the year after a general for a 2nd term govt. Given the foot shooting this Govt has indulged in, the trend refects this rather than being an endorsement of Labour&#039;s performance or the alternative Govt they are putting forward.

The polls will tell you when you are starting to get things right when they show some Green or NZ First vote coming back, rather than a protest vote against what the govt may have stuffed up the week the polling was conducted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@David Clark I agree the trend line is clear, but to say that it is a reflection on David Shearer&#8217;s leadership is a big jump to make. I do agree that the Govt&#8217;s dismal performance reflects in the trend, but given that performance, this trend should be a given and not require analysis. In doing so, it can easily be misconstrued as crowing, even if that was not the intention.</p>
<p>For the record, my explanation for the trend, is that it consistent with most polling trends the year after a general for a 2nd term govt. Given the foot shooting this Govt has indulged in, the trend refects this rather than being an endorsement of Labour&#8217;s performance or the alternative Govt they are putting forward.</p>
<p>The polls will tell you when you are starting to get things right when they show some Green or NZ First vote coming back, rather than a protest vote against what the govt may have stuffed up the week the polling was conducted.</p>
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		<title>By: David Clark</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/24/voters-let-down-by-key-let-me-count-the-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-312124</link>
		<dc:creator>David Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 11:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=38000#comment-312124</guid>
		<description>@DWW I think you&#039;ve missed the point. There&#039;s no crowing here. Right up front there&#039;s an admission that polls go up and down - but that the trend line is clear. This is not particularly about how far we&#039;ve come, or how far there is to go, but rather an attempt to explain why the trend is going where it&#039;s going. Do you have a better explanation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DWW I think you&#8217;ve missed the point. There&#8217;s no crowing here. Right up front there&#8217;s an admission that polls go up and down &#8211; but that the trend line is clear. This is not particularly about how far we&#8217;ve come, or how far there is to go, but rather an attempt to explain why the trend is going where it&#8217;s going. Do you have a better explanation?</p>
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		<title>By: DWW</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/24/voters-let-down-by-key-let-me-count-the-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-312000</link>
		<dc:creator>DWW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 06:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=38000#comment-312000</guid>
		<description>Until the polls consistently have National below 40% and Labour consistently hitting above 35%, it remains dismal reading. To still be trailing by more than 10% with everything the Govt has stuffed up this year is nothing to be crowing about. I think the trend would mean more if the Govt were NOT covered in scandal and screwing up everything they touched. Then it would show that people were turning away from National and to Labour because of the alternatives Labour were offering not because the Tories were shooting themselves in the foot at every opportunity.

I compare this post to a rugby team crowing because they had gone from losing by 20 points to 10 points during a period where the opposition was particularly woeful. If I was the coach, I&#039;d be telling the team to keep their focus on actually winning a game before mouthing off how bad the opposition are and how good they just because they are losing slightly less badly than they were a year ago!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Until the polls consistently have National below 40% and Labour consistently hitting above 35%, it remains dismal reading. To still be trailing by more than 10% with everything the Govt has stuffed up this year is nothing to be crowing about. I think the trend would mean more if the Govt were NOT covered in scandal and screwing up everything they touched. Then it would show that people were turning away from National and to Labour because of the alternatives Labour were offering not because the Tories were shooting themselves in the foot at every opportunity.</p>
<p>I compare this post to a rugby team crowing because they had gone from losing by 20 points to 10 points during a period where the opposition was particularly woeful. If I was the coach, I&#8217;d be telling the team to keep their focus on actually winning a game before mouthing off how bad the opposition are and how good they just because they are losing slightly less badly than they were a year ago!</p>
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		<title>By: Tim G</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/24/voters-let-down-by-key-let-me-count-the-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-311557</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2012 09:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=38000#comment-311557</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think he is trolling. If he were, he would have linked the poll, and made a comment about your By the Numbers, which was what I was planning on doing. Since that&#039;s apparently ban-able, I won&#039;t.

What I will say is that &quot;context&quot; is a funny thing, because it changes constantly. So could your trend line. Anyway, conference isn&#039;t far off, and you can hear it from the members themselves.

Hubris &lt;i&gt;always&lt;/i&gt; comes before a fall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think he is trolling. If he were, he would have linked the poll, and made a comment about your By the Numbers, which was what I was planning on doing. Since that&#8217;s apparently ban-able, I won&#8217;t.</p>
<p>What I will say is that &#8220;context&#8221; is a funny thing, because it changes constantly. So could your trend line. Anyway, conference isn&#8217;t far off, and you can hear it from the members themselves.</p>
<p>Hubris <i>always</i> comes before a fall.</p>
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		<title>By: here to help</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/24/voters-let-down-by-key-let-me-count-the-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-311470</link>
		<dc:creator>here to help</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2012 05:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=38000#comment-311470</guid>
		<description>&quot;Labour is heading in a consistently upward direction&quot; (David Clark).

To 29%?

[consistent trolling will get you banned. My comments in context are clear, as will the linked trend line continue to be when adjusted for this poll. David]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Labour is heading in a consistently upward direction&#8221; (David Clark).</p>
<p>To 29%?</p>
<p>[consistent trolling will get you banned. My comments in context are clear, as will the linked trend line continue to be when adjusted for this poll. David]</p>
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		<title>By: bbfloyd</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/24/voters-let-down-by-key-let-me-count-the-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-310748</link>
		<dc:creator>bbfloyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 22:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=38000#comment-310748</guid>
		<description>@here to help... You need to take your own advice little hero...As in &quot;help yourself to grasp reality&quot; ....

Once the omega 3 suppliments kick in, you may be surprised how easily you spot the obvious misinformation, and deliberate omissions contained in every issue of every daily newspaper (except the Otago Daily Times), and the obvious selectivity with which television news portrays what passes for &quot;news&quot;...

Once that process of cognition has begun, then the realisation that you are being fed a false picture of reality as ir stands in parliament will become clear...

The reality that the labour party, the green party, nz first, and mana, have regularly torn brand new orifices out of every member of the merry pranksters front bench(and a few of their second raters as well)... But if you don&#039;t actually attempt to bypass the &quot;official&quot; fourth estate to access the wealth of anecdotal evidence of such, then you speak from utter ignorance...

Try harder next time... amusing as it is to read your uninformed rants, you represent a dangerous ignorance.. the kind of ignorance that has had us re-installing administrations that work towards undermining the gains made on behalf of ALL New Zealanders...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@here to help&#8230; You need to take your own advice little hero&#8230;As in &#8220;help yourself to grasp reality&#8221; &#8230;.</p>
<p>Once the omega 3 suppliments kick in, you may be surprised how easily you spot the obvious misinformation, and deliberate omissions contained in every issue of every daily newspaper (except the Otago Daily Times), and the obvious selectivity with which television news portrays what passes for &#8220;news&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>Once that process of cognition has begun, then the realisation that you are being fed a false picture of reality as ir stands in parliament will become clear&#8230;</p>
<p>The reality that the labour party, the green party, nz first, and mana, have regularly torn brand new orifices out of every member of the merry pranksters front bench(and a few of their second raters as well)&#8230; But if you don&#8217;t actually attempt to bypass the &#8220;official&#8221; fourth estate to access the wealth of anecdotal evidence of such, then you speak from utter ignorance&#8230;</p>
<p>Try harder next time&#8230; amusing as it is to read your uninformed rants, you represent a dangerous ignorance.. the kind of ignorance that has had us re-installing administrations that work towards undermining the gains made on behalf of ALL New Zealanders&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: here to help</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/24/voters-let-down-by-key-let-me-count-the-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-310736</link>
		<dc:creator>here to help</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 22:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=38000#comment-310736</guid>
		<description>@David C

No point re-hashing the arguments in a public forum, because we all know what you&#039;re obliged to say. That&#039;s what caucus discipline requires, regardless of what you may or may not really believe.

I&#039;m simply saying out loud what you know: the government is a shambles, but Labour have not taken advantage. A change at the top is inevitable, you know it, everyone knows it, please hurry up and do it. 

And FYI, condescending to the voters isn&#039;t smart. It&#039;s the default position from MPs on Red Alert, and it&#039;s one reason (among many) the blog is so moribund. Another Labour fail.

Yes, David, I can read polls, I&#039;ve done it for 30 years, in political campaigns in three countries. I know (and so do you) that headline numbers &lt;i&gt;between election campaigns&lt;/i&gt; aren&#039;t the story. If you&#039;re putting your faith in the post-election dead cat bounce, check out Bill English&#039;s numbers in the months following the 2002 debacle. David Shearer has &quot;achieved&quot; the same. Goff would have done no less. So what?

It&#039;s the campaign that matters, and Labour won&#039;t be going into 2014 with an accident waiting to happen, so hurry up and do what you gotta do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@David C</p>
<p>No point re-hashing the arguments in a public forum, because we all know what you&#8217;re obliged to say. That&#8217;s what caucus discipline requires, regardless of what you may or may not really believe.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m simply saying out loud what you know: the government is a shambles, but Labour have not taken advantage. A change at the top is inevitable, you know it, everyone knows it, please hurry up and do it. </p>
<p>And FYI, condescending to the voters isn&#8217;t smart. It&#8217;s the default position from MPs on Red Alert, and it&#8217;s one reason (among many) the blog is so moribund. Another Labour fail.</p>
<p>Yes, David, I can read polls, I&#8217;ve done it for 30 years, in political campaigns in three countries. I know (and so do you) that headline numbers <i>between election campaigns</i> aren&#8217;t the story. If you&#8217;re putting your faith in the post-election dead cat bounce, check out Bill English&#8217;s numbers in the months following the 2002 debacle. David Shearer has &#8220;achieved&#8221; the same. Goff would have done no less. So what?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the campaign that matters, and Labour won&#8217;t be going into 2014 with an accident waiting to happen, so hurry up and do what you gotta do.</p>
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		<title>By: Sal</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/24/voters-let-down-by-key-let-me-count-the-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-310733</link>
		<dc:creator>Sal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 22:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=38000#comment-310733</guid>
		<description>I think Labour needs a leader with more of a point of difference from Key than Shearer provides. Someone who can expose Key&#039;s shallowness and lack of political substance. What does the man believe in? Money and the right to amass lots of it by hook or by crook without state interference, is pretty clearly the answer to that question. Unfettered money-making is no kind of value on which to lead a democratic country forward, dare I say it, towards a brighter future? How does money-making speak to the Health, Education, social and criminal justice issues that plague and challenge all modern multi-cultural democracies - government for the people, of the people, by the people? We need stronger, smarter and more substantive values leading our country. Labour&#039;s leadership needs to embody and hard-sell these stronger values to the electorate, exposing Key&#039;s shameful lack of substance as it goes. Sadly, I don&#039;t think Shearer has the strength of conviction needed to do this alone. Perhaps a co-leadership of Shearer and Ardern? She&#039;s a point of difference and substance to be sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Labour needs a leader with more of a point of difference from Key than Shearer provides. Someone who can expose Key&#8217;s shallowness and lack of political substance. What does the man believe in? Money and the right to amass lots of it by hook or by crook without state interference, is pretty clearly the answer to that question. Unfettered money-making is no kind of value on which to lead a democratic country forward, dare I say it, towards a brighter future? How does money-making speak to the Health, Education, social and criminal justice issues that plague and challenge all modern multi-cultural democracies &#8211; government for the people, of the people, by the people? We need stronger, smarter and more substantive values leading our country. Labour&#8217;s leadership needs to embody and hard-sell these stronger values to the electorate, exposing Key&#8217;s shameful lack of substance as it goes. Sadly, I don&#8217;t think Shearer has the strength of conviction needed to do this alone. Perhaps a co-leadership of Shearer and Ardern? She&#8217;s a point of difference and substance to be sure.</p>
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		<title>By: The Al1en</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/24/voters-let-down-by-key-let-me-count-the-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-310701</link>
		<dc:creator>The Al1en</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 21:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=38000#comment-310701</guid>
		<description>Wrong! Hark at her :lol:

The smaller pool of mega earning tax payers who declare earnings less than a worker on average wage... And then get a top up bonus because the &#039;business people&#039; have got one hand on the purse strings, one in the till, and with the three handed shaker in charge, probably a third nestled firmly in someone&#039;s back pocket.

Yeah, wrong indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wrong! Hark at her <img src='http://blog.labour.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif' alt=':lol:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The smaller pool of mega earning tax payers who declare earnings less than a worker on average wage&#8230; And then get a top up bonus because the &#8216;business people&#8217; have got one hand on the purse strings, one in the till, and with the three handed shaker in charge, probably a third nestled firmly in someone&#8217;s back pocket.</p>
<p>Yeah, wrong indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Blarney Stone</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/24/voters-let-down-by-key-let-me-count-the-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-310671</link>
		<dc:creator>Blarney Stone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 20:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=38000#comment-310671</guid>
		<description>Wrong Alien, it&#039;s not bribing people with their own money.  It&#039;s bribing the larger pool of tax takers with the money paid by the smaller pool of tax payers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wrong Alien, it&#8217;s not bribing people with their own money.  It&#8217;s bribing the larger pool of tax takers with the money paid by the smaller pool of tax payers.</p>
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