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	<title>Comments on: The roads to nowhere</title>
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	<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/09/21/the-roads-to-nowhere/</link>
	<description>A blog written by Labour MPs</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 18 May 2013 00:39:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Don Polly</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/09/21/the-roads-to-nowhere/comment-page-1/#comment-314317</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Polly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 22:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=37679#comment-314317</guid>
		<description>A number of aspects of RON, particularly this stretch through Kapiti give every appearance of an ill-thought Think-Big fiasco, but the most galling part of the plan is the ego involvement behind it.  Labour has not been not well known over recent years for strong stands on anything, much less follow-up action.  Still, there are several already well presented alternatives. Don&#039;t have a lot of faith, but good luck!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A number of aspects of RON, particularly this stretch through Kapiti give every appearance of an ill-thought Think-Big fiasco, but the most galling part of the plan is the ego involvement behind it.  Labour has not been not well known over recent years for strong stands on anything, much less follow-up action.  Still, there are several already well presented alternatives. Don&#8217;t have a lot of faith, but good luck!</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/09/21/the-roads-to-nowhere/comment-page-1/#comment-300380</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=37679#comment-300380</guid>
		<description>&quot;A Labour-led Government will build a transport system that moves people and freight with maximum efficiency&quot;  

Well, no you won&#039;t.  That&#039;s NOT the job of any government.

And your &#039;maximum efficiency&#039; had better be matched to &#039;effectiveness&#039; - and an end in mind that prospers most along the way.

(Aside - why is it that pollies always, yes always, offer grunt jobs in construction and engineering - pick and shovel stuff, when most of that work is done by one bloke on his Euclid or Caterpillar?  Where&#039;s the rest of the picture?  And where are the jobs for women and people who don&#039;t pine to work in vile conditions of heat, cold, muck?)

The time for fluff statements is well-past. You&#039;ve had four years to gather the players for the change you have in mind, otherwise, as has been pointed out, you&#039;ll be &#039;consulting&#039; for three years instead of doing your true part in the revitalisation.

PS  You could be seriously radical and talk with SMEs who&#039;d love to ship their products through NZ but find it&#039;s cheaper to sell across the ditch.  Show us how you can use the networking capacities of government to solve some of these long-standing issues without transferring rewards for incompetence and over-blown budgets from the taxpayers to inefficient big players.

Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A Labour-led Government will build a transport system that moves people and freight with maximum efficiency&#8221;  </p>
<p>Well, no you won&#8217;t.  That&#8217;s NOT the job of any government.</p>
<p>And your &#8216;maximum efficiency&#8217; had better be matched to &#8216;effectiveness&#8217; &#8211; and an end in mind that prospers most along the way.</p>
<p>(Aside &#8211; why is it that pollies always, yes always, offer grunt jobs in construction and engineering &#8211; pick and shovel stuff, when most of that work is done by one bloke on his Euclid or Caterpillar?  Where&#8217;s the rest of the picture?  And where are the jobs for women and people who don&#8217;t pine to work in vile conditions of heat, cold, muck?)</p>
<p>The time for fluff statements is well-past. You&#8217;ve had four years to gather the players for the change you have in mind, otherwise, as has been pointed out, you&#8217;ll be &#8216;consulting&#8217; for three years instead of doing your true part in the revitalisation.</p>
<p>PS  You could be seriously radical and talk with SMEs who&#8217;d love to ship their products through NZ but find it&#8217;s cheaper to sell across the ditch.  Show us how you can use the networking capacities of government to solve some of these long-standing issues without transferring rewards for incompetence and over-blown budgets from the taxpayers to inefficient big players.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: OneTrack</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/09/21/the-roads-to-nowhere/comment-page-1/#comment-300325</link>
		<dc:creator>OneTrack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 06:16:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=37679#comment-300325</guid>
		<description>Jack - And they are finally doing something to sort it out with SH20 (better late than never.  If only Helen hadn&#039;t vetoed it though, Auckland transport would be much better off if it had been done years ago)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack &#8211; And they are finally doing something to sort it out with SH20 (better late than never.  If only Helen hadn&#8217;t vetoed it though, Auckland transport would be much better off if it had been done years ago)</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Ramaka</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/09/21/the-roads-to-nowhere/comment-page-1/#comment-300321</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Ramaka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 05:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=37679#comment-300321</guid>
		<description>I would have thought that sorting out Auckland&#039;s congestion would be a major transport priority-obviously not!!!

I DON&#039;T GET IT, MAYBE I AM MAD, PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would have thought that sorting out Auckland&#8217;s congestion would be a major transport priority-obviously not!!!</p>
<p>I DON&#8217;T GET IT, MAYBE I AM MAD, PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Ramaka</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/09/21/the-roads-to-nowhere/comment-page-1/#comment-299990</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Ramaka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2012 06:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=37679#comment-299990</guid>
		<description>The Holiday Highway will produce what. Please enlighten me Whangarei is merely a Port for Northland&#039;s log exports and Marsden Pt plus a service town for the surrounding agricultural sector, the traffic on the Highway to Whangarei is very limited except at Xmas when everyone goes on holiday.

It would be interesting to see some evidence based research rather than the artifical BS we get from Steven Joyce and Gerri Brownlee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Holiday Highway will produce what. Please enlighten me Whangarei is merely a Port for Northland&#8217;s log exports and Marsden Pt plus a service town for the surrounding agricultural sector, the traffic on the Highway to Whangarei is very limited except at Xmas when everyone goes on holiday.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to see some evidence based research rather than the artifical BS we get from Steven Joyce and Gerri Brownlee.</p>
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		<title>By: Spud</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/09/21/the-roads-to-nowhere/comment-page-1/#comment-299911</link>
		<dc:creator>Spud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2012 01:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=37679#comment-299911</guid>
		<description>:evil: Greece also drove down The Road to Nowhere! :evil: :evil: :evil: !!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <img src='http://blog.labour.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif' alt=':evil:' class='wp-smiley' />  Greece also drove down The Road to Nowhere! <img src='http://blog.labour.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif' alt=':evil:' class='wp-smiley' />  <img src='http://blog.labour.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif' alt=':evil:' class='wp-smiley' />  <img src='http://blog.labour.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif' alt=':evil:' class='wp-smiley' />  !!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Ramaka</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/09/21/the-roads-to-nowhere/comment-page-1/#comment-299902</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Ramaka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2012 00:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=37679#comment-299902</guid>
		<description>QTR you may be correct but cars and trucks in Auckland are clogging up the roads. I don&#039;t know whether rail will work and be cost effective because nobody gives anybody accurate figures, all we hear is rhetoric from both sides.

If you actually live in Auckland you will realise there is a problem with Transport.

It would be nice to see or read a balanced article on the subject rather than emotional BS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>QTR you may be correct but cars and trucks in Auckland are clogging up the roads. I don&#8217;t know whether rail will work and be cost effective because nobody gives anybody accurate figures, all we hear is rhetoric from both sides.</p>
<p>If you actually live in Auckland you will realise there is a problem with Transport.</p>
<p>It would be nice to see or read a balanced article on the subject rather than emotional BS.</p>
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		<title>By: Quoth the Raven</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/09/21/the-roads-to-nowhere/comment-page-1/#comment-299697</link>
		<dc:creator>Quoth the Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2012 07:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=37679#comment-299697</guid>
		<description>I hope Labour&#039;s evidence based approach will include healthy skepticism with regards to rail which up until now has been romanticised by Labour MPs. For instance, in this paper &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/centres/bt/Documents/UnfittestOXREPHelm3.4PRINT.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Survival of the unﬁttest: why the worst infrastructure gets built—and what we can do about it&lt;/a&gt; the author looked at 258 projects in 20 nations and found that on average rail projects run over budget 44.7%, bridges and tunnels 33.8%, and roads 20.4%. Ridership in nine out of ten rail projects is overestimated with rail ridership falling short of predictions 51.4% on average. That means that rail projects usually attract half the expected traffic. That is something for the promoters of an Auckland rail loop to think about. The number of roads with overestimated and the number with underestimated trafﬁc is about the same with half of road trafﬁc forecasts being out ±20%. 

What this shows is that most infrastructure projects are built on overoptimistic predictions and that rail is especially prone to cost underestimation and ridership overestimation. 

The explanation the author offers for this is a public choice one where beneﬁts are emphasized and costs and risks de-emphasized by those who stand to benefit, politicians, officials, developers, &amp;c.

Claims regarding the supposed environmental benefits of rail should be viewed with skepticism as well. &lt;a href=&quot;http://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=6095&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The anti-planner blog&lt;/a&gt; looked at Transportation Energy Data from the U.S. Department of Energy and had the following findings:

&lt;blockquote&gt;1. Transit doesn’t particularly save energy. According to the Department of Energy’s Transportation Energy Data Book, the average car uses about 3,500 BTUs per passenger mile (see page 2-15). By comparison, the average transit vehicle used about 3,440 BTUs per passenger mile. Getting people into cars like the Prius (1,700 BTUs per passenger mile) will do more to save energy and reduce pollution than expanding transit systems.

2. Light rail is even less energy efficient than transit as a whole. Light rail uses, on average, more than 3,600 BTUs per passenger mile. The most energy-efficient form of transit is van pools, followed by publics (shared taxis), heavy rail, and commuter rail. Automated guideways, demand-response, and ferry boats are the least energy efficient.

3. While commuter rail is, on average, more energy efficient than most other transit, the numbers are skewed by New York City’s commuter-rail system. Portland’s commuter-rail line uses nearly 6,000 BTUs per passenger mile, while Salt Lake’s uses well over 5,000. Of course, New York’s numbers also skew averages for heavy rail, bus, and transit as a whole, but not light rail because there is so little light rail in the New York metro area.

4. When taken as a whole, the transit systems for the vast majority of urban areas use far more energy per passenger mile than driving. Only New York, Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, San Francisco-Oakland, and Honolulu use significantly less energy per passenger mile than driving. While Minneapolis-St. Paul’s and Portland’s systems use slightly less energy than driving. Most others use much more: Seattle’s, for example, uses 4,900, Dallas-Ft. Worth’s uses 6,300, and Phoenix’s uses nearly 6,000 BTUs per passenger mile. This does not count the energy costs of constructing rail lines in these cities, which can be huge.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope Labour&#8217;s evidence based approach will include healthy skepticism with regards to rail which up until now has been romanticised by Labour MPs. For instance, in this paper <a href="http://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/centres/bt/Documents/UnfittestOXREPHelm3.4PRINT.pdf" rel="nofollow">Survival of the unﬁttest: why the worst infrastructure gets built—and what we can do about it</a> the author looked at 258 projects in 20 nations and found that on average rail projects run over budget 44.7%, bridges and tunnels 33.8%, and roads 20.4%. Ridership in nine out of ten rail projects is overestimated with rail ridership falling short of predictions 51.4% on average. That means that rail projects usually attract half the expected traffic. That is something for the promoters of an Auckland rail loop to think about. The number of roads with overestimated and the number with underestimated trafﬁc is about the same with half of road trafﬁc forecasts being out ±20%. </p>
<p>What this shows is that most infrastructure projects are built on overoptimistic predictions and that rail is especially prone to cost underestimation and ridership overestimation. </p>
<p>The explanation the author offers for this is a public choice one where beneﬁts are emphasized and costs and risks de-emphasized by those who stand to benefit, politicians, officials, developers, &amp;c.</p>
<p>Claims regarding the supposed environmental benefits of rail should be viewed with skepticism as well. <a href="http://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=6095" rel="nofollow">The anti-planner blog</a> looked at Transportation Energy Data from the U.S. Department of Energy and had the following findings:</p>
<blockquote><p>1. Transit doesn’t particularly save energy. According to the Department of Energy’s Transportation Energy Data Book, the average car uses about 3,500 BTUs per passenger mile (see page 2-15). By comparison, the average transit vehicle used about 3,440 BTUs per passenger mile. Getting people into cars like the Prius (1,700 BTUs per passenger mile) will do more to save energy and reduce pollution than expanding transit systems.</p>
<p>2. Light rail is even less energy efficient than transit as a whole. Light rail uses, on average, more than 3,600 BTUs per passenger mile. The most energy-efficient form of transit is van pools, followed by publics (shared taxis), heavy rail, and commuter rail. Automated guideways, demand-response, and ferry boats are the least energy efficient.</p>
<p>3. While commuter rail is, on average, more energy efficient than most other transit, the numbers are skewed by New York City’s commuter-rail system. Portland’s commuter-rail line uses nearly 6,000 BTUs per passenger mile, while Salt Lake’s uses well over 5,000. Of course, New York’s numbers also skew averages for heavy rail, bus, and transit as a whole, but not light rail because there is so little light rail in the New York metro area.</p>
<p>4. When taken as a whole, the transit systems for the vast majority of urban areas use far more energy per passenger mile than driving. Only New York, Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, San Francisco-Oakland, and Honolulu use significantly less energy per passenger mile than driving. While Minneapolis-St. Paul’s and Portland’s systems use slightly less energy than driving. Most others use much more: Seattle’s, for example, uses 4,900, Dallas-Ft. Worth’s uses 6,300, and Phoenix’s uses nearly 6,000 BTUs per passenger mile. This does not count the energy costs of constructing rail lines in these cities, which can be huge.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Jack Ramaka</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/09/21/the-roads-to-nowhere/comment-page-1/#comment-299675</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Ramaka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2012 04:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=37679#comment-299675</guid>
		<description>We need to see the Cost/Benefit Analysis on the Holiday Highway I think it  tois White Elephant, the tunnel through the Waiwera Hill is chaos at Xmas time with 10km queues.

I think they need to seriously look at a good rail link to Whangarei.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We need to see the Cost/Benefit Analysis on the Holiday Highway I think it  tois White Elephant, the tunnel through the Waiwera Hill is chaos at Xmas time with 10km queues.</p>
<p>I think they need to seriously look at a good rail link to Whangarei.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/09/21/the-roads-to-nowhere/comment-page-1/#comment-299673</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2012 04:19:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=37679#comment-299673</guid>
		<description>Jack, thanks for considering Northland &#039;nowhere&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack, thanks for considering Northland &#8216;nowhere&#8217;.</p>
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