Comments on: A Poke and a Prod on National Standards and League Tables

By: Peter C

Peter C — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 08:46:04 +0000

National Standards data has now been released. Also of interest is that there are 25 schools named as not supplying National Standards data to the Ministry – one being Waikanae Primary. However this is somewhat eroneous. The facts are that a) the BOT has had regular constructive ongoing dialogue with the MoE. B) The BoT has supplied assessment data to the Ministry – copious amounts of data! C) The National Standards data is already on the school website.
One of the concerns about current National Standards data according to Hon John Key is that it is “ropey” due to lack of moderation, and of course there is also the issue of lack of depth. Waikanae School supplied over 160 pages of assessment data, data that is both historical going back over several years,and comparative data that is current. It breaks the information down into the different cohurts, by age, class group, ethnicity, and gender. The school has reported to parents using the National Standards. The National Standards data is there, embeded in the other data to give an overall comprehensive view of how children are performing. It is also posted on the school’s website for anyone to see. The problem appears to that the Ministry website can not handle the amount of assessment data provided. Instead the Ministry wants the data in a narrow, overly simplistic 2-3 page box ticking format.

By: Leanne

Leanne — Wed, 22 Aug 2012 01:58:21 +0000

There are some slack teachers out there, and I have experienced one for two years at a rural school. Lazy, unfair, poor pastoral care, used her cellphone in class for personal calls – you get the picture. If National Standards can lift the standard of teacher performance, then it is worth pursuing. That same slack teacher was caught out by persistent parents like myself going back and forth to the principal for over a year. She is now under the wing of a competent senior teacher and doing a much better job.

Kids will learn better if teachers give their all in the classroom and make lessons fun. The kids learn without even know they are learning! So all for it, although it needs a lot of work to make standards consistent and I don;t think the Ministry has got a handle on that yet. ERO is now much more specific in their targets and give much more relevant feedback at the conclusion of their visits.

By: Joanie Panting

Joanie Panting — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:31:17 +0000

The public do not realise just how stupid these ‘standards’ are. How many people know for example that the standard for Maths is the same at the end of Year 5 as it is at the end of Year 6. If theachers take that data aolone it means the children look as though they are underachieving in Year 5 and fine again in Year 6. Schools already have good normed and tested assessment procedures which fit with the curriculum. These ‘standards’ are just a distraction and a way to get their ‘National’ logo in the public eye.

By: Nanaia Mahuta

Nanaia Mahuta — Sat, 18 Aug 2012 11:51:00 +0000

@Dorothy I agree I don’t know why National thinks following UK or USA models will improve our educational outcomes??

@Paul B If they had an acronym to sum their Government up what would it be?

@refred on the one hand National says parents need good data yet they are happy to put national standards up on the PAI. Variable data is inaccurate information to compare the effectiveness of a school

@Rex morris league tables will not help parents to discern how well their child is progressing at school, you make a very sound argument as to why the move is contrary to what really matters in terms of evaluation and assessment of children against parental expectation. I suspect most parents want an education for their child that will develop their full potential across the whole curriculum! On the PAI you should expect that a Labour Government will stress the importance of reporting against the whole curriculum and argue for robust qualitative data that can inform effective teaching practice and engage children and parents in learning outcomes

@Stephanie. thanks

@All National has chosen parental opinion as the battleground for education policy. Thats why they had to retract on class sizes (a doomed and ill informed policy). Parents knew that putting their kids in a larger class was not a good idea. Plain english reporting is the hook for National Standards but its not a complete picture for children’s individual learning progression or to inform parents what schools are doing particularly well in the context of their community. @SJW and @John W the revolution is about parent knowing what is at stake if National continues its systemic distruction of a quality public education system.

By: SJW

SJW — Thu, 16 Aug 2012 02:27:04 +0000

John W

Worth repeating what you said

“Them and US.

Divide and privatise

Bought teaching systems with grades [ and sanitised content ]

Break up the unions

We don’t need and educated mass.

The financially elite parasites [ the least productive group in society ] will separate their kids from other anyway.

All the above lead to a mess but the bottom end suffer the most.

There is not enough opposition activity stimulating the non voters to act.”

By: mh

mh — Thu, 16 Aug 2012 02:19:51 +0000

All these comments continue to ignore the facts that over 90% ? of teachers are women,until the sex ratio is improved and men are encouraged to enter what is left of the so called profession then schools will continue to fail no matter what standards are asked for or displayed. The only league results in sth Akld to be of any value are those of the NRL comp.

By: Jeremy

Jeremy — Thu, 16 Aug 2012 01:17:17 +0000

Unfortunately Paul B League tables are a definite vote winner, esp for the center. Too many people such as builders mate/DPF are still thinking in terms of productivity/efficiency/outputs rather than effectiveness/outcomes. Labor needs to be clear that schools and many other departments need holistic assessment data, such as an ERO report rather than a number on a table. (Charter schools in the US tend to avoid such scrutiny, possibly because half are backdoor religious recruitment agency determined to teach Creationism/ID)
We do not need the impression that Labor will prevent parents from accessing information to decide which school to send their kids to. The temptation for the ‘busy middle’ is to go straight for an answer (a figure) without considering the question.
We all know someone who sends their kids to private schools at much hardship, even with scholarships. Often these parents have had poor experiences with “bad” previous teachers/schools, public or private. All parents want to choose the best for their kids, and many have been left none the wiser when asking parents/principals how their kids are doing. These are the problems that Labor needs to define and solve. Only then can they criticize National who at least are addressing the concern of parents,even if the cure is worse than the disease.
National also seem to think there is votes in “standing up to” the all powerful union that wants to protect their jobs first before looking after your kids. Obviously someone should point out that the union is the teachers/ professionals. The minister is only an amateur when it comes to educational theory. If they are determined to cut out the union then they are determined to have no professional input to their amateur decisions. Not sure the public would be too keen on Treasury and other faceless bureaucrats deciding what/how to teach.

IE – the public need to know and have faith in labors well written alternatives. Need to understand it as well as trust that it is meaningful. Parents need to support their school and know that their school is just as good as any other, and getting better each year. And let the electorate that National talks about the long tail then directs resources to the top private schools, while making the job harder at the bottom 25%.

By: Mike Steinberg

Mike Steinberg — Wed, 15 Aug 2012 23:48:54 +0000

****. In simple terms, they don’t need them, as all their schools are excellent! ****

@ Bill Courtney

They have also been a very homogeneous country. You probably get a similar mix of students across schools. If you read Robert Weissberg’s “Bad Students, Not Bad Schools”, you’ll see that student motivation & aptitude is the major factor in what makes a good school. This largely comes from the students and their parents.

By: Rex Morris

Rex Morris — Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:39:50 +0000

Builders Mate – what standards are you referring to – I have heard about a huge leaky building problem…………..

By: John W

John W — Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:14:49 +0000

Builder mate

Rigorous standards already exist coupled with a curriculum that has taken many years to develop and streamline under the meagre resources allocated to education. Educationally these are both liked and are highly regarded by world standards.

The importation of ideas born out of a class inbedded education environment just don’t fit NZ nor will the results from schooling be better.

The distraction of National Standards approach will do a lot of harm to Education.

But if you are happy to accept the rubbish spouted be puppet Hekia Parata then so be it.