This entry was posted on Wednesday, July 4th, 2012 at 10:02 pm and is filed under defence. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, July 4th, 2012 at 10:02 pm and is filed under defence. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Yes, but is our frigate above sailing in a sea of tanks?
… well, at least that would be more friendly than Pearl Harbour?
I hope they have enough ‘sea days’ left to get home
@ Paul B, you mention Pearl Harbour. Anyone notice how the Chief of Defence Force said “early in the process, we started to see if we could go into Pearl Harbour, but the Americans just reiterated ‘no’, their standing policy would be there.” Yet Key said “they were never rejected, so they weren’t turned away. They were never going to the military part.” So were they declined a berth at Pearl or not? Looks like another Key porkie. To be fair, maybe he was quoted out of context? Maybe he was actually speaking about tourists visiting the Arizona memorial, wearing is Tourism hat?
@ jennifer, Yes, but when’all is said and done’ the Pearl Harbour rejection by our gallant ally is just another ‘storm in a teacup’?
Key`s spiel on the issue is just his usual predictable spin. He (and Joyce) are THE ‘masters of spin’- and one day we will all see through it
We are actually on OK terms with the Top Table in the US but some naval brass still remember David Lange? Anyway our boys will have better fun at the commercial port – it is much closer to the real action in town.
I have difficulty getting excited about defence cuts at this time. Aside from refugees, we seem to have no clear enemy, on any horizon.
Anyhow, if that ocean of tanks in the picture above, (Or are they just our surplus LAVs?), have been issued bullets – then we are OK?
The way both National and Labour have gutted our militay and alliances is a disgrace. It’s as if you all believe that there aren’t other countries out there that view NZ as lebensraum, and if the world goes to hell in a handbasket (and it can faster than we could rebuild our military) they wouldn’t be willing to kill to get it.
Jeremy says “other countries out there that view NZ as lebensraum”
I would have thought the Australians are experiencing exactly that from Kiwis
Now Jeremy , this is not PC. BUT I worry about selling NZ`s rural gold to a communist ‘dictatorship’ which brutally treats to its own dissidents, invaded Tibet and proceeds to overwhelm the inhabitants, and now supports a corrupt murderous regime{Syria). If in the future China decides that it does not like our attitude, might it feel ‘justified’ invading us to look after its dairy interests?. Superpowers do that!… even an ally. The US supported the attempted Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba. And who doesn`t believe that the Iraq invasion was not largely about US oil interests,….And the US is a proper (I think) democracy.
So I do believe we should have a military… but more a sustantial core which prepares and plans for rapid growth … sooner or latter…?
We more or less have that now?
Who ordered these ships ?
Do we need any more when these are clapped out – soon.
Below is what John Armstrong at the Herald thinks of the Pearl Harbour berth snub. Strong language for Armstrong!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/international-politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503226&objectid=10817154
So is Labour going to step into the breach and make the “terse statement” Armstrong believes Key should have made?
How bout that kiwifruit thing?
!!!!!
The US says to NZ:
“There is no U in Pearl Harbor.”
LOL
@ Spud
Just plain scary
The reports seem to ignore the possibility of horticultural sabotage. It is so easy. Is it is just too awful to contemplate?
I once met an aged lady who illegally imported seeds for her garden- “just in my coat- nobody looks in an old ladies pocket”. She knew it was illegal, but was totaly unaware of the biological danger. Remember calici virus – and of course compared to botanical pathogens it was a difficult ‘import’. But much more scary is a deliberate malcontent, possibly seeing our horticultural advantage as his disadvantage.
We should endeavour to introduce as much biological variation in our crops as possible – but sadly we are inclined to mostly go for the most profitable cultivar with less thought for safety in biodiversity.
Our isolation was once an advantage, but now with rapid and mass movement of bodies and goods we have a real problem.
In a strictly logical biosecurity sense you could argue
that we should deal with every ‘body’ passing our border as a quarantine situation … but.. oh well?
“The way both National and Labour have gutted our militay and alliances is a disgrace. It’s as if you all believe that there aren’t other countries out there that view NZ as lebensraum, and if the world goes to hell in a handbasket (and it can faster than we could rebuild our military) they wouldn’t be willing to kill to get it.”
Flawed logic, bruv.
Doesn’t matter how big our military spend is, on our budget, even if consistently overblown, our tanks and planes and bombs and cannon fodder wouldn’t last 10 minutes against the big boys.
So ultimately a waste of cash in the here and now.
All we have to do is spend enough to take part in war games and earn an alliance in the process and cross our fingers.
Spend the rest on solo mums, housing, education and food aid for NZ’s poverty stricken.
@Paul B
That sucks! 
Education for the ignorant is what is needed! 
A compulsory departure lounge video complete with Don’t Do what Donny Munter Does examples! 
!!!!!
As for sabotage, that’s depressing
Good points you made.
Um, Labour were actually building it up, National have cut it again. I don’t agree with the way they were building it up (it really should be a defence force and not a police force) but they were building it up.
Actually, we could if we made the correct decisions about what the defence force is for. If we want it to prevent an invasion then we build it to stop that invasion which means a single launch of missiles to sink 75% or more of any invasion fleet (there’s no such thing as being nice in war). Believe me, no one will even think of invading if we had that capability.
Unfortunately, under the last government we went with the policing option instead and so we can’t actually defend our country.
“last government we went with the policing option”
What a load of nonsense. I suppose 103 LAVs were for crowd control ?. A big jump up from the flat bed trucks the infantry used to use to travel any distance.
The patrol vessels are prefect for pacific islands work, as enemy submarines were last in our waters in 1944
The secret to gaining entry to Pearl Harbour is to turn up unannounced – just ask Isoroku Yamamoto.
Labour and National have cut defence to bone over the years or else my son wouldn’t gone and joined the Australian Defence Force because he seen no future in the NZDF with poor pay, poor equipment and getting treated like dirt by the public and you pollies.
His Uncle is still in the RNZAF and he has said he would’ve walked out in the last round of cuts but the payout was to low after 30 plus yrs of loyal service to his country. Now his cousin wants to leave the NZ Navy for the RAN after her chief training and after her return to service.
National cut pay and conditions along with capability in some areas of capability there was no replacement or was reduced to bugger all between the 91 to 98.
Labour was same without the pay cuts only they steamlined the pay system so techcially speaking it was not a pay rise and stuffed up the NZDF super scheme for the Kiwisaver. Cut capability and reduced capability in other areas, but also made some very bad descions on equipment replacement.
Anyway i’ll let my son Allen fire the broadsides from now and some of you in the Labour party (CHCH/ Northern region area) will know who he is as he was a member of the Party from 90′s till a couple years ago’s, His Grandmother is a well known loyal Labour supporter from Nelson/ West Coast area.
Al’s Dad
ghostwhowalksnz,
You are one talking nonsense, 103 LAV’s hundred of those’s are gun wagons and 3 recovery wagons! Where are the A Echlon Armoured Support Wagons ie AMBO’s, Motar Carries, Fitters Vehicles, Command Wagons etc.
Christ we had 1 CAV (Recon) Sqn and a APC Sqn was fully equip with the above mention vehicles in A Echlon. Also there was to fully equip light Cav Sqns (Both were TF) from the late 60′s to 2002.
The Army “aka Infantry Officers coup” plan under Labour there was to be no Cav Sqns but a Mech Infantry Force based around the 2 RF Battlions. For anyone who studies NZ Army history in the late 50′s to the early 60′s this force structure was abandon due to a high cost and manning problems. So they went for Light Infantry force with 3 Cav Sqns and 1 APC Sqn to support the Infantry.
I would like to ask if the term “police action” in military terms is truly understood all involved…
To the best of my knowledge, ‘police action” doesn’t mean domestic crowd control… that’s what the riot squad, and the “civilian” police force is for…..
Policing trouble spots around the pacific, among other areas would, of necessity, require the equipment necessary, e,g… lav’s, for one…..
Doesn’t strike me as rocket science…..just common sense..
Hi Draco!
!
I’m p***ed that the government cut the army bands!
!!!!!!
Hi Ghost!
!
Hi bbfloyed
!
@ Paddy that was funny!
Who needs the Yanks they have tanked. Let’s go play war games with the new super power China!
They may even throw in a much more modern aircraft carrier then the mighty USA have, so we are competitive.
No, the last government specialised the armed forces for use in UN peacekeeping forces rather than actually defending NZ. It’s, IMO, the wrong weighting for the armed forces.
Hey spud….:-)
Labour wouldn’t know what peacekeeping was unless it was bited in the bum.
Like Labours so called lessons learnt from East Timor (Interfet).
Like not taking up the option for 8 new C-130Js that National ordered in the late 90′s, instead lets take a short term/ more high risk option and upgrade the the crap out ones which entered service in 65-66.
Labour went against Navy advice and brought the high risk COTS Navy Ships instead of getting proved MOTS Ships for Navy. RNZN has a ship that can only 70% of it taskings even then it has to be in sea state 2 for some taskings, the 2 OPV’s are 100 ton over weight and now this whole project has now cost the poor taxpayer an awful amount of money than it should’ve.
No short haul tactical aircraft replacement for the Andovers that National scraped in the 90′s and they can take pressure of the C-130′s.
The new NRH 90′s are not fitted with its Forward Infa Red turrets (Standard fit for all NRH 90′s) for night flying dropped for cost reasons and auto folding rotor blades were dropped for the same reason.
Cut backs to the Army’s TF units with manning under Labour dropping to low levels some say it was worst than National in 90′s and it was awful under National believe me I was in the NZ Army in the 90′s.
Will Labour advocate a cessation of the four year pay freeze for NZDF personnel?
Draco – those with the capacity to invade us can buy what they want – and also appararently force trade deals, such as TPP, to get all they want. Groser “our” negotiator equates American concern about international disputes resolution authority (our win) with us having to accept international corporate litigation against government sovereignty in domestic law (our loss).
In the abstract case of how we could stop an invasion force – anyone capable of organising one cannot be stopped by us. Missiles require either a location or a delivery system – they would be taken out by missiles with a longer range or other military capacity with a longer reach. This quite apart from anti-missile tech constantly advancing leaving our past investments obsolete. It’s a contest we would always have to be winning or be caught out. It would result in security paranoia – such as last seen during the USSR-USA Cold War prior to SALT.
Multi-lateralism is incorporated within a forward defence collective security framework – UN peacekeeping. This includes de-militarising the Artic (as well as Antarctica) and the 200 mile economic zone disputes being resolved by international law.
Our best long term survival strategy should be by way of a strong United Nations… so God help us – but it still ‘tries’ to do the proper and decent thing. It is just possible that real moral authority will carry some weight
Powers come and go- the US seems on the slippery slope – It is ‘Rome’ and past its peak . Evidence is that the next administration running the show may be just plain Loopy… ‘Nero Mit’? The States is now where the priviliged & powerful in a society just want to become more wealthy at any cost, and at the expense of the ‘others’.
Selfish, selfdestructive; and stuffed soon?
China is just scary. We should not give them an opportunity to dictate to us – eg by selling lots of land and assets and soon realising that we are just serfs – and then, too late perhaps, attempt to change the rules to recover the situation – they may not allow that!!! We should be very very wary of ANY nondemocracy that treats minorities & dissidents badly – it may soon be us? We should never compromise sovereignity, – trade deals will likely bite the little fellows -the big boys just ignore the fine print when it suits, but they will for sure crucify the weak.
‘We’ might not be around, but our Kids kids deserve better from us – but, like in the States, our wealthy consider that they have the right to sell ‘their’,AND, ‘OUR’ assets, into an international market’ Seems great BUT for just a very little while.
Key and co, and parties of the right, preach long term objectives but play a short term game. Profit for their followers, and soon, is their real policy!
…Seem to have strayed from ‘defence cuts’, but clearly we can only ever be a tiny bit player.
A decent independant ethical foreign policy, and a strong United Nations is our best hope… OR… perhaps we could just succumb and become a South South China province…. -
A ‘pragmatic’ arguement could be made?.. by some others
Which means that we need the anti-missile tech as well.
/facepalm
That happens all the time and is usually the driver of investment.
Security of the nation isn’t something you leave to chance when the global systems are collapsing.
The major local/regional security issue is ensuring the 200 mile economic zone disputes are resolved by international law.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18765094