is this the best response you could come up with? at least kiwiblog has posted recent research to show that with teacher numbers increasing at many times the rate of increase in student numbers we have seen no improvement in educational outcomes… at least we now have plenty more teachers to join the unions and pay their fees to the labour party though…
@Jsrret don’t believe the National spin from the most excellent face for radio Farrar.
I am sick of the right wing Truthisms that get pick up by the media as gospel when with a tiniest amount of investigation they prove to be complete and utter lies.
This type of research only looks at sound evidence based research that meets a certain rigourous standard – usually randomised controlled trials. Studies that don’t meet this grade should be taken with a very large grain of salt.
They found 4 main ways of improving performance but 3 on the list was –
■ Reducing class size in grades K-3 (the average student in small classes scores higher on theStanford Achievement Test in reading/math than about 60% of students in regular-sized classes)in the control group).
National & Farrar are selling you a great big lie on teachers student ratios. They are selling you bad education policy that will do nothing but harm.
Its easy to do when you count teachers for all schools but only count non fee paying students.
Some wealthy schools are paying for their own staff ( special subjects) outside the governments student teacher ratio as well.
thanks richie, that’s exactly the kind of statistic we need to be very careful with, the fact that the average of one group was higher than 60% of the other group means absolutely nothing, the average results of the students in the larger sized classes could well be higher than the average from the small classes, we can’t tell that from the passage you quoted because we don’t know the average of the results from the larger classes, i agree randomized controlled trials are almost always preferable but unless the teachers were unaware that they were part of the trial then that is a huge risk of bias that cannot be addressed by just randomizing placement of students, to be honest guys i think farrar is a complete knob but at least he put up an argument, sad that chris “oh look there goes space shuttle Challenger” hipkins and tim g aren’t up to it, even richie can’t help having a go at farrar’s appearance, dude have a look at lange or clark, not pretty pictures but still widely respected, if you have a point to make then why not just make it, leave the personal attacks out
We all know that 73% of all statistics can be manipulated any which way, but I’m sure all those kids being stuffed into overcrowded classrooms, just when they’re at their most impressionable and eager to learn, won’t. Bless ‘em.
who is manipulating stats al1ens? the authors of the study in tennessee that was quoted by the study in HER that was quoted by the study from the dept. of ed that richie quoted probably included the comparison of the average results of larger class sizes vs average of results of smaller class sizes in the original study, but that comparison probably didn’t give the impression of students being harmed by larger class sizes that someone in the long chain of quotes was hoping for, so we get a meaningless comparison of one group’s average vs the bottom 60% of the other group… you did’t address my point about the clear problem with the quote from the study but at least you managed to make comment without personal attacks so well done on that score
you addressed the issue of stats, that would only have been addressed at me or richie, i am new here and i think i’ll leave you guys to it from now on, you really don’t seem capable of discussion or debate without getting silly, i thought better of you all, i thought better of shane jones when he first came to parliament too… now i know better…
@Jsrret – Chris H posted a humourous video about a serious issue, and “the best response you could come up with” was to quote someone you consider to be a “complete knob” and (darkly) opine:
“at least we now have plenty more teachers to join the unions and pay their fees to the labour party though…
So the reason that Labour don’t want higher class sizes is so that more teachers can magically materialise to pay union fees that through some insidious Cam-Slater-unaudited-union-cloak-and-dagger-age make their way into the bursting coffers/troughers of the NZLP, right?
Repeating memes that imply that teachers are the enemy might be good enough for you, the National Party and Pol Pot, but its not “up to it” here.
If you reintroduced streaming it would be entirely feasible to support larger class sizes, improve educational outcomes and reduce load on the teacher as they could then focus on the common skill level of their class. At the moment there is just a free-for-all, with the already present result that the top 15% and bottom 15% miss out.
Unfortunately there seems to be an ideological reason that this is not done.
jsrrt is repeating a Nactional meme of stulifying mindlessness. The PPTA & NZEI are not affiliated to the Labour Party or any other political party. The members fee does not contribute to the funding of any political party.
However, any teacher can campaign for whichever party he or she believes is a competent manager of the country.
Surprisingly in 2011 quite a few teachers, despite jsrrt’s allegations, actually voted for the KeY owned NACTional party.
Some communities and clusters of schools learnt a bit during the National standards debacle, so hopefully this education sector equivalent of the old mini/phone box people stuffing record attempts will be foiled at every turn.
My preference is to have Education managed by professionals who utilise the best and most current research to determine policy. Our teaching trade unions are a very valuable addition to the mix of children, community and parents, but they are there to look after the interests of their fee-paying members.As such it would be entirely irresponsible to give them control of education policy, yet that is exactly what Labor will do. Labour party do not have the guts to stand up to Trade Unions and is for this reason that the current needs of our kids and future needs of our communities is best served with an education policy derived from outside the Union movement. Go Hekia!
These are the voices of Labour MPs on issues that we care about - and we'd like to hear what you think too. What you’ll read are the individual opinions of MPs. We won’t always agree with each other and sometimes our opinions may change.
is this the best response you could come up with? at least kiwiblog has posted recent research to show that with teacher numbers increasing at many times the rate of increase in student numbers we have seen no improvement in educational outcomes… at least we now have plenty more teachers to join the unions and pay their fees to the labour party though…
I’m not sure which was funnier, the video or jsrret’s surreal response
Back to worship at the rudimentary shrine to High Priest Farrar for that man.
@Jsrret don’t believe the National spin from the most excellent face for radio Farrar.
I am sick of the right wing Truthisms that get pick up by the media as gospel when with a tiniest amount of investigation they prove to be complete and utter lies.
Here is a study from US Department of Education 2003, http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/rigorousevid/rigorousevid.pdf .
This type of research only looks at sound evidence based research that meets a certain rigourous standard – usually randomised controlled trials. Studies that don’t meet this grade should be taken with a very large grain of salt.
They found 4 main ways of improving performance but 3 on the list was –
■ Reducing class size in grades K-3 (the average student in small classes scores higher on theStanford Achievement Test in reading/math than about 60% of students in regular-sized classes)in the control group).
National & Farrar are selling you a great big lie on teachers student ratios. They are selling you bad education policy that will do nothing but harm.
jsrret dont be fooled by that numbers game
Its easy to do when you count teachers for all schools but only count non fee paying students.
Some wealthy schools are paying for their own staff ( special subjects) outside the governments student teacher ratio as well.
thanks richie, that’s exactly the kind of statistic we need to be very careful with, the fact that the average of one group was higher than 60% of the other group means absolutely nothing, the average results of the students in the larger sized classes could well be higher than the average from the small classes, we can’t tell that from the passage you quoted because we don’t know the average of the results from the larger classes, i agree randomized controlled trials are almost always preferable but unless the teachers were unaware that they were part of the trial then that is a huge risk of bias that cannot be addressed by just randomizing placement of students, to be honest guys i think farrar is a complete knob but at least he put up an argument, sad that chris “oh look there goes space shuttle Challenger” hipkins and tim g aren’t up to it, even richie can’t help having a go at farrar’s appearance, dude have a look at lange or clark, not pretty pictures but still widely respected, if you have a point to make then why not just make it, leave the personal attacks out
We all know that 73% of all statistics can be manipulated any which way, but I’m sure all those kids being stuffed into overcrowded classrooms, just when they’re at their most impressionable and eager to learn, won’t. Bless ‘em.
who is manipulating stats al1ens? the authors of the study in tennessee that was quoted by the study in HER that was quoted by the study from the dept. of ed that richie quoted probably included the comparison of the average results of larger class sizes vs average of results of smaller class sizes in the original study, but that comparison probably didn’t give the impression of students being harmed by larger class sizes that someone in the long chain of quotes was hoping for, so we get a meaningless comparison of one group’s average vs the bottom 60% of the other group… you did’t address my point about the clear problem with the quote from the study but at least you managed to make comment without personal attacks so well done on that score
“you did’t address my point”
To be totally fair, I didn’t actually address you at all.
“at least you managed to make comment without personal attacks so well done on that score”
You must be a bit new here
you addressed the issue of stats, that would only have been addressed at me or richie, i am new here and i think i’ll leave you guys to it from now on, you really don’t seem capable of discussion or debate without getting silly, i thought better of you all, i thought better of shane jones when he first came to parliament too… now i know better…
“at least you managed to make comment without personal attacks so well done on that score”
“you really don’t seem capable of discussion or debate without getting silly”
Granted that’s more feeble than overtly aggressive, but irony 1 jsrret 0
@Jsrret – Chris H posted a humourous video about a serious issue, and “the best response you could come up with” was to quote someone you consider to be a “complete knob” and (darkly) opine:
So the reason that Labour don’t want higher class sizes is so that more teachers can magically materialise to pay union fees that through some insidious Cam-Slater-unaudited-union-cloak-and-dagger-age make their way into the bursting coffers/troughers of the NZLP, right?
Repeating memes that imply that teachers are the enemy might be good enough for you, the National Party and Pol Pot, but its not “up to it” here.
Great video Chris, hope the lying Parata watches it.
Great video. If you mass produce it is possible to rote teach with numbers in excess of 50. The 15% of bright and the 15% of slow kids suffer though.
If you reintroduced streaming it would be entirely feasible to support larger class sizes, improve educational outcomes and reduce load on the teacher as they could then focus on the common skill level of their class. At the moment there is just a free-for-all, with the already present result that the top 15% and bottom 15% miss out.
Unfortunately there seems to be an ideological reason that this is not done.
jsrrt is repeating a Nactional meme of stulifying mindlessness. The PPTA & NZEI are not affiliated to the Labour Party or any other political party. The members fee does not contribute to the funding of any political party.
However, any teacher can campaign for whichever party he or she believes is a competent manager of the country.
Surprisingly in 2011 quite a few teachers, despite jsrrt’s allegations, actually voted for the KeY owned NACTional party.
Some communities and clusters of schools learnt a bit during the National standards debacle, so hopefully this education sector equivalent of the old mini/phone box people stuffing record attempts will be foiled at every turn.
Its quite funny that moving teachers from teaching to crowd control will supposedly increase the education outcomes.
Any parent can tell then how it works, the more children you have to control the harder it gets and the louder you have to yell.
Its simple maths and ratios.
My preference is to have Education managed by professionals who utilise the best and most current research to determine policy. Our teaching trade unions are a very valuable addition to the mix of children, community and parents, but they are there to look after the interests of their fee-paying members.As such it would be entirely irresponsible to give them control of education policy, yet that is exactly what Labor will do. Labour party do not have the guts to stand up to Trade Unions and is for this reason that the current needs of our kids and future needs of our communities is best served with an education policy derived from outside the Union movement. Go Hekia!