Interesting article today quoting Sir Peter Gluckman on a possible new element to the brain drain; students undertaking their undergraduate studies overseas.
In the absence of any real data on this its hard to say if there has been a spike in students going overseas to undertake undergraduate studies. Anecdotally there has been an increased presence of Australian universities holding recruitment sessions at some schools. Just how many students are taking them up is a piece of information worth knowing, and I welcome Sir Peter looking into it.
One thing is for sure and that is that Australian universities are now operating in an environment where targeting New Zealand students makes sense. They have had a number of funding increases in recent budgets and are operating in an uncapped environment when it comes to enrolments. Add to that the ease with which New Zealand students can enrol and be treated as domestic students in terms of fees, and the incentives are there on both sides.
All of which makes Steven Joyce’s comments in this story just bizzare. He says
Joyce said the election promise had not been about stopping the brain drain, but increasing the success of the New Zealand economy so more people felt they could be successful here.
”It doesn’t apply to undergraduates, it applies to people earning high incomes in New Zealand,” he said.
First off it is simply untrue to say National did not campaign on stopping the brain drain. Take a look at the billboards Mr Joyce, that is exactly what they promised. And the opposite has occured.
Moreover his laissez faire attitude to the departure of undergraduate students is bizarre. They are the future earners of high incomes! We have a hard enough time keeping our best and brightest here without waving them goodbye at 18.
Regardless of the accuracy of the claim of undergraduate flight, we do need to take another look at how we invest in the tertiary sector to ensure that we are getting the best outcomes for students and for New Zealand as a whole. There does need to be a focus on both ensuring equity of access and developing world class institutions. More from me on that soon. But in short we also need to see the sector as a key part of our economic growth agenda, not some drain on the country;s finances.
When I listen to Steven Joyce I sometimes feel that the whole tertiary education thing is a bit of nuisance to him, (eg his moves to “dampen demand” and the budgeted decline in tertiary funding) rather than the opportunity for economic and social progress that it should be.
I am not sure about undergraduate departures but I had multiple friends who went to Australia to study medicine because they could not get into the Auckland medical school.
Sounds like the hon. member is suffering from a bit of selective amnesia. It is a great quote, and seems to reflect a values system along the lines of: only high income earners welcome here, thanks. Middle-income earners better served plying their trade in Australia/UK where they will be (relatively speaking) well-paid.
This suits me but I’m not so sure about the return on the tertiary education investment.
Let them go. Flawed free trade policies have caused New Zealand to revert to a primitive commodity exporting economy that has little use for graduates (even of the modern degree mill variety).
Well, I’ve recently finished my doctorate in Chemistry and was extremely fortunate to get any employment at all. I got approximately the only science job in my main centre, earning 36k. There’s no jobs in science, because there’s no investment in R&D in this country.
If you want to know why skilled workers are gapping it to Australia and beyond in high numbers, look no further than the lack of investment in high-tech industry and adding value to agricultural industries – and the resulting poor job opportunities and low wages.
There will always be some loss of educated, skilled and entrepreneurial people overseas, but that can be minimised by making New Zealand an attractive place for these people to earn a living. Failure to get these people to stay will mean New Zealand will see its economy and living standards stagnate further.
Porridge, what main centre are you in? I’m a chemical engineer in a large institute in Wellington and we are always advertising and may much more than that for a new PhD. There are always jobs being advertised and we normally go off shore to fill positions with good candidates. About half of the scientists are from overseas. Even I am from Aus originally. One of the few going against the tide and better off for it. There is never any problem in getting good people to move here.
@Porridge, in my industry we are constantly advertising for science graduates to start an academic career. It is an opportunity to continue research in their field and gain a myriad of other skills. Our last position available advertised two months ago, we received a total of ZERO New Zealand applications and 30 from overseas. The starting salary is between $50k and $60k dependent on qualifications for a Junior Lecturer with a minimum of a Masters, preferably a Doctorate. This lack of New Zealand applications has been constant for us over the last ten years. I guess the upside of this is that my colleagues are from the US, Pakistan, India, Canada and England, bringing a good mix of approaches and styles to our students. If New Zealand graduates don’t want to stay, and don’t want to apply for well paying positions, then what can we do? Force them to stay?
@TimG ” I had multiple friends who went to Australia to study medicine because they could not get into the Auckland medical school.”
For what reason could they not get in? Medical school is not open entry and they only take the very best of all candidates (even under Labour). Would you have it that they settle for mediocre students? I have friends who could not get into Engineering School at Canterbury and Medical School at Otago, so what? They weren’t suitable and others were deemed a better use of funding and had a lower risk of failing.
Jack: I’m in Wellington. The closest job to my field currently advertised on Seek is for an Intermediate/Senior Environmental Engineer. There’s plenty of Engineering jobs, although none even in Chemical Engineering. There’s a number of geological engineering jobs, but they’re all actually in Queensland.
Dave: If you would be interested in New Zealand graduates, do you advertise direct to universities and offer internships?
Now, obviously, my best value play would have been to do geology, but then, if I’d done that, I’d be overseas.
@Porridge – we advertise in New Zealand as a first hit not directly with Universities, but through the normal media and private channels. Internships are not for the level we operate at, they are generally for undergraduates, we need research active graduates, which means Masters or Doctorate. An internship is an lowly paid trial period, and we know how opposed Labour are to that, so I’m surprised you would be promoting it. We certainly have no interest in them. We offer the jobs, they are well paid for people with no experience but they are not interested, there is little else we can do but look overseas. This is common amongst all Universities and Polytechnics in New Zealand, if my colleagues information is correct. We also have a very small market for science and technology. Frankly 36K for a graduate with no experience sounds about par. Its hardly minimum wage is it?
Names and dates, Dave. Or it’s just all made up internet spin.
@Aliens, “names and dates” for what? Conversations with my colleagues? Advertisement dates? Running the interview selection processes, checking the credentials of our interviewees? No spin, just facts. My industry relies on things that are axiomatic. Whereas yours clearly relies on your ability to push a broom. If you don’t understand something just say it, otherwise leave the adults to have a discussion would you.
Wow, al1ens must have forgotten for a second that white collar workers are Much More Important than menial labour….
I’ll have a word with him about it once he’s finished scrubbing your loo and checking the dictionary to translate your post.
@TimG, you do that. I won’t apologise for having an education any more than you would for not having one.
rofl – yes if I had missed out on both degrees, and was earning less than 100k I’m sure I would fall into silent submission – that is what you count on from your working class, right?
@al1ens – I hope this is the last time I have to speak to you about speaking out of turn. You know how Mr D. gets when he feels challenged by his subordinates.
And I want to see those toilets shine!
@TimG – Glad you’ve come around. What on earth is “working class” ? Unless you own the place you work at, everyone is working class regardless of their income. The paranoia of the left is legendary. BTW don’t let them know that you earn $100k p.a. they’ll make you hand in your tinfoil hat, and …um … work boots.
@TimG – Of course I understand that you live and work in Japan, another “lost” graduate ‘sniff’.
@Aliens, My industry relies on things that are axiomatic. Whereas yours clearly relies on your ability to push a broom. If you don’t understand something just say it, otherwise leave the adults to have a discussion would you.
Viva revolution, Dave
Dave: general salary range for people with a doctorate in chemistry and no relevant experience is 45-60k, depending on what exactly they are doing (based on plenty of graduates I know). Unfortunately, the availability of such jobs has dried up massively. Many graduates go overseas as a result, where they get those wages or better – and with excellent career prospects in high tech industries.
That said, given the number of people without postgraduate degrees I know unable to obtain more than casual or part-time work, I consider myself pretty fortunate to have any kind of employment.
I don’t see the government’s policies improving the labour situation in NZ any time soon.
Coming in a bit late, but above, Dave said his company offers a starting salary of $50-60K for a PhD. How does that compare in your field compared to overseas? Under the new 12% loan repayment, that’ll give you a take home of c.$820 a week. Sure, nothing to sniff at but doesn’t go far for graduates with families esp considering the rent costs etc etc. No wonder so many leave.
An additional factor: studying overseas is largely only an option for those students who possess considerable financial resources to begin with. New Zealand university tuition fees are considerably cheaper than elsewhere in the world, and only those who are already wealthy or are prepared to take on huge amounts of student debt WITH INTEREST while they study overseas can embrace overseas tertiary education.
When “top students” are talked about, it refers to students with both ability (which is perfectly fine, and hard-earned) and the good fortune to be able to pay. Scholarships… in Australia, New Zealanders are eligible for neither international scholarships (being classed as domestic) nor most domestic scholarships (unless they study international Baccalaureate, finish Year 13 in Australia or settle for third tier scholarships with little impact).