I am not a practising Catholic. I can’t quite do the God thing. Though having been brought up as a Catholic I can’t quite not do it either.
Perhaps that’s why I’m a member of the Labour Party instead. There’s a set of values that underpin the broader Catholic Church and christianity generally which Labour shares.
For social justice, and against greed.
One of the reasons I’m not a practicising Catholic is that I can’t abide the institutional corruption and greed which (in many cases) lies at the heart of organised religion. But Catholicism, like all many religions, is also driven by a desire to make sense of our world and to promote collective goodness and community. My view of what politics should be is not dissimilar.
Tonight Last night I watched a programme on Sky News (Australia) called Mamamia where a pannelist referred to this article, where the Vatican (or the social justice branch of the Vatican) called for morality to be put back into the heart of economics. And radical reform of the world’s financial systems, including the creation of a global political authority to manage the economy.
I’m not sure morality was ever in the heart of economics. But mark my words. There’s a change happening in our world.
Greed is not ok. Poverty is not ok.
Politicians, social justice activists and those of many religious faiths across our world are forming a new community as we speak. I support that community as long as it’s not driven by vested interests and greed. And the Vatican needs to demonstrate that to the world.
But listen up.
The Vatican and the Global Financial Crisis
Published: November 04, 2011
As protesters demonstrate against corporate greed and politicians struggle with the eurozone crisis, the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace has published proposals for reforming international finance. It is a document that puts morality back into the heart of economics, says William Keegan in The Tablet.
While the New Testament tells us to “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”, the Church, and Churches, understandably take a close interest in the effect that governmental economic and social policies have on the well-being of the flock.
Apart from anything else, the Church has close contact with both the citizens of what are known as the “advanced economies” as well as with the emerging nations of the developing world.
PS: (see this link to last week’s episode of Mamamia, great show)
The Vatican talking about morality? And wealth distribution? And helping the poor as they accumulate and sit on how much wealth?
The Vatican pays no taxes and their wealth is estimated in the high billions but it is so secret no one knows.
I’m about to boil the kettle for them so they can call it black. They are the ultimate tax haven.
Authority is what’s causing the problem. Need more democracy and less dictatorship.
You might like to look at this (Rowan Williams’ recent piece in the FT) which David Cameron supported in the UK Parliament:
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/articles.php/2236/time-for-us-to-challenge-the-idols-of-high-finance
and which also refers the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace document on reforming the international financial and monetary systems.
One can be, quite properly, very critical of many aspects of the Catholic Church as an institution (and of the Anglican and other traditions, too) but I’ve also seen those same organisations doing the best of work in the most difficult of circmstances (for example, in Pinochet’s Chile in the Vicaria de Solidaridad, and with trade unions in Apartheid South Africa).
When at their best, they are powerful agents for progressive change.
My son goes to a Catholic school, they had a mission day yesterday raising money for charity work around the world, all aimed at lifting children our of poverty, something the National Government doesn’t know anything about.
I see the unemployment figures are up, John and Bill are doing an excellent job of putting more kids into poverty and driving wages down and increasing the cost of living.
Vote National for increased child poverty
When it comes to “social justice”, perhaps The Vatican could try rendering unto Caesar full co-operation with investigations into clerical sex crimes. Or is that a little too close to home?
As a “reformed Catholic” (an atheist) myself, at last you’ve come up with an analogy that we can all agree with.
Labour is like the Vatican:
- A large organisation with immense hierarchy and wealth taken from the poor.
- More concerned about ideology than actually helping. (Condoms cause AIDS!)
- Full of “closeted” individuals!
- Supported by tithing (compulsory union fees)
- Self-righteousness of true believers despite much evidence to the contrary
- Hiding and denying of serious crimes (victims include tilers and Wgtn students)
I’m sure I can think of others, but don’t want to get banned.
So, something has to change, does it Clare? Well, sorry to be obtuse, but you are a Labour MP and there is an election campaign in full swing. I would have thought you might have joined the two together, a few months back? Your more senior colleagues seem to have made the connection.
Yes Clare, would be good to see something change and preferably a change of Government that doesn’t include NACT. Hope and a prayer eh?
Although I was similar to yourself whereby my parents were Catholic, I felt fortunate that they found aspects of the Church worthy of scrutiny and allowed me to leave the shackles of the convent. I was only 6 at the time but wow does that stuff stick like…,well you know what it sticks like.However, Catholics in general ,I find a wonderful group of people and helpful always. Just that the powers (and they are)of the Church really need to lead by good example first before I could trust them, and it won’t happen, and really the Church and Politics, look at the Brethren, agenda?much?
Sorry Clare I’m enormously confused about what the message is here during the election campaign.
Labour’s moral message of the economic, social and democratic benefits of an employed, educated, fed and informed population has been a clear and strong one, and people come to the conclusion that this is desirable for any number of reasons.
It’s true Christian socialism played a strong part in the compassion behind the development of Labour ideals, yet this was not a focus in the campaign launch, though it is certainly part of my family’s Labour history.
It is, however, surely asking for a world of trouble to say that we should look to religious morality in a haphazard manner, when it is convenient, unless there is a considered approach to do so?
Cast:
God – Helen Clark
Pope – Phil Goff
Cardinal – Michael Cullen
Ex-communicated Priests – Chris Carter, Darren Hughes
Sisters – Darien Fenton, Clare Curran
Altar Boy – Spud
“Holy, Holy, Holy Labour,
Party of crim and loser,
Unis and unions are full of your cronies,
Hosanna in the highest
Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Clark,
Hosanna in the highest”
Globally poverty is declining and the world is becoming a more equal place. This due largely to economic liberalisation within nations like China and India and trade liberalisation between nations in recent decades. Poverty reduction is closely associated with institutions and policies consistent with economic freedom. Indicators of economic freedom such as openness to trade and small size of the government are robustly associated with poverty reduction in developing nations. It’s clear what works. Greater human freedom and less statism will logically lead and has empirically led to less poverty, more economic growth and development. Removing the obstructions to human freedom from the state will result in much less misery, in much greater happiness, in the continued elimination of starvation and poverty and human betterment.
Things do have to change. We need to pare back leviathan. We should renounce those who seek control over the lives of others through the institution of mass coercion which is the state. We should renounce those who wish to impose through force their vision of society and who wish to force others to conform to it.
Stellar cast you got there!
This post is extremely confused. There is very little to be admired about the catholic church. At best, they pay lipservice to the ideas you are promoting.
Now this is just hot air. I’m sick of ‘morality’ and ‘greed’ being thrown around as if they represent a clear vision. The terms are so over-used that they have lost any vague meaning they may have once had. Everyone agrees that we want less ‘poverty’ and less ‘greed’–whatever that means. The question is how do we actually do better. Unfortunately, so far Labour isn’t offering as clear a vision as National.
The Catholic Church lecturing on morality and greed is like is like Genghis Khan giving a speech on how to be a good neighbour.
Apart from helping war criminals and genocidal maniacs escape trial, funding paramilitary death squads, aiding and abetting pederasts, denying large parts of the 3rd world contraception to fight AIDS, laundering money, discriminating against homosexuals, turning a blind eye to the holocaust and many, many,many other crimes, too many to list here, the Catholic Church aren’t that bad.
Hehe – excellent timing. In the Herald there’s an article involving the Catholic Church and their “lascivious dust jackets” http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10764039
You are banned. Clare
Glad you broke out Clare – you are in good company with Phil Goff of course. The Roman Catholic Church hierarchy makes the right noises about distribution of wealth, as they can – but they rely on the rich donors and rich Western donor countries to keep them in business.
However wheels are falling off in America, Ireland, Germany, Italy .. I could go on.
But anyway, good on you for farewelling all those myths and legends.
I’m not sure morality was ever in the heart of economics.
Perhaps someone might say that economics isn’t supposed to presuppose any particular values (perhaps one finds that dubious) that economics may inform us how to pursue certain ends that we may have or how certain means are economically infeasible or logically incoherent and it may provide implications for ethical theorizing, but at the end of the day moral philosophy is for moral philosophers. I don’t know, however I’m not sure Clare would be interested in such a discussion as it wouldn’t fit onto a bumper sticker like “Poverty is not OK” or “Stop corporate greed” and maybe that means to ends discussion that would come up might cause unwanted reflection on the on the economic policies that she supports (just see my comment above).
Takes courage to venture onto ground others are too timid of. I have no religious belief or affiliation myself, and like others here have views about catholicism and other isms in this area.
I was a victim of child sex abuse, not by a religious person so no compensation package for me… so do not have blinkers on with regard to churches. However no person or organisation is all bad or all good, and with their enormous resources it is likely there are good people and great minds within their ranks. IF they have ideas on making the world a better place, then they publish them and we can read or not read them. Clare went out on a limb and gave some insight into herself and pointed us toward a paper of interest to her.
She will have known in advance the outpouring about the evil catholic church that would greet this post, and posted it anyway. That is honest and took some courage.
So much sanitising and spinning from politicians, that we only “know” about them the image that is carefully cultivated (and paid for behind the scenes), or invented by Opposition parties.
Unless I’m very much mistaken Clare made it very clear that she believes the Labour parties share some of the philisophical values lying under/behind the church, not necessarily what is practised by all within it.
“but at the end of the day moral philosophy is for moral philosophers” Interesting, every day I meet and hear and see people who are not philosophers postulating the morals others ought to live by, or did you mean something else?
I also wonder if purporting to behave as though morals do not come into the equation, has an element of moral philosophy about it?
“A Note issued on 24 October 2011 by the Vatican’s Council for Justice and Peace, entitled ‘Reform of the international financial system with a view toward a general public Authority’, has not yet been officially translated into English (so far only in French and Italian). “
Tracey – I meant that economics as a discipline may be considered by some not to make ethical assumptions and that positive ethical theorizing isn’t really within the scope of economics which is meant to be about the study of how people employ scarce resources (or however one defines economics). Not that economists don’t have morals (in fact there seems a very strong moral streak amongst economists). I don’t know though as I’m not sufficiently versed in the subject. Don’t fall into the trap that Clare does in making assumptions about the strength of the moral convictions of your political opponents.
The other point is that economics can inform us in a means to end debate. For instance if you have a strong sense of social justice the question of what ‘social justice’ consists of is a philosophical one how you go about achieving goals associated with social justice is where economics can inform us. With that in mind we can look at the empirical evidence that greater human freedom, free markets and less statism are the best ways to alleviate poverty and provide for the poor.
Thanks for the clarification. The thing is that even the collection of empirical evidence is informed by choices, moral and otherwise by the researcher. Nothing is black and white. In my experience those that claim to be distanced from moral influence n their work, are often more blinded b its impact than those who accept the “bias” exists in them as in all, and accounts for it in their reporting.
“Don’t fall into the trap that Clare does in making assumptions about the strength of the moral convictions of your political opponents. ” Thanks for the moral warning and am not sure what assumptions you think I’ve made, morally, and who you consider my political “opponents” to be.
“With that in mind we can look at the empirical evidence that greater human freedom, free markets and less statism are the best ways to alleviate poverty and provide for the poor.”
Turning life, for the poor, into a competition for money is uncivilized. I don’t have a problem with you rich people doing battle with each other for the title of biggest rich prick in the world, but leave the rest of us out of it.
Competitive devaluation of wages, at the lower end of the pay scale, will result in mass poverty and, if allowed to go the whole way, will precipitate the ultimate demise of our New Zealand civilization.
End structural unemployment now!
We desire the same ends we just disagree on the means. You can pontificate all you want and bark out bumper sticker slogans, but you need a substantive argument. It is a sad irony that those who avow to be the workers best friend are often in practice their worst enemies.
Economic freedom correlates positively with a higher income level for the poorest ten percent, with higher women’s income and human development. If you want continually rising wages for New Zealanders, as I do and greater prosperity for all then free markets and ever greater liberty is the path to follow.
I’m far from rich. Don’t make assumptions ed.
“If you want continually rising wages for New Zealanders, as I do and greater prosperity for all then free markets and ever greater liberty is the path to follow.”
Isn’t this an assumption?
Tracey – No. The indices of economic freedom that I link to above and similar systematic analyses clearly demonstrate the positive link between economic freedom and higher income and the alleviation of poverty. Not to mention the claims of economic theory. You could look at specific cases of free market reforms (China, India, Hong Kong, South Korea, etc) which have resulted in the fastest elimination of poverty in human history. For the reverse see the numerous examples of societies that became significantly more statist and implemented state socialist economic policies (Cambodia, North Korea, Somalia under the Barre regime, other past Marxist-Leninist African regimes e.g., Benin, Ethiopia and of course the Soviet states) and the human misery that resulted from such experiments. Of course you will say none of it is conclusive, but compare that to the quixotic justifications and dearth of empirical substantiation for the anti-capitalist policies that are put forth in the comments here.
Any organized religion is a scam of the highest magnitude and is about money and control. The Vatican pontificating about morality is mind boggling. This is the governing state of the institution which is responsible for giving us (amongst many other things) such delights as the dark ages, the slaughter of the crusades, the millions who died of bubonic plague, the inquisition, and the protection of priest child sex abusers. And I’ve never had an answer from a Catholic as to why there is an enormous pagan symbol of the penis smack bang in the middle of Vatican city. (Co-incidentally just like the other two sovereign city states the City of London and the District of Columbia.)
Anyway, things such as morals and ethics are not factored into any economics equations or theories. This is probably deliberate, as moral and ethical behavior are not conducive to profit. But economics is a crock anyway. The so called ‘experts’ try to make out like it is a science when in fact it is just a man made, contrived thing. Try asking an economics ‘expert’ what inflation is; you’ll get an answer that is completely impossible to understand and pages or hours long. Try telling them that inflation is simply an increase in the overall money supply and watch them get indignant.
Better still, ask them where money comes from and who creates it…..
And Quoth the Raven. Do you really believe that the free market system which you seem to support, where humans seek advantage over each other for money alone, fueled by their own self interest will somehow create a sustainable, healthy balanced society? There is no room in the market economic model for social relations or responsibility. People and their welfare are not deemed important other than they are producers and consumers. Take any of the free market model calculations or measures and you’ll see none of them have the welfare or stableness of society as part of the equation. The family and their ability to survive are not considered as relevant in terms of inputs into calculations.
This system by it’s very design ensures that those who lack empathy and are more selfish have a huge advantage in conducting business. As has been proven in nature and in many studies, competition actually inhibits the full potential of human behavior and growth.
For example: Healthcare contributes a large share of GDP, which means that a large portion of economic growth is determined by sick and dying people! If the amount of money spent on healthcare increases, that is considered to be a good thing in economics speak. The more sick and unhealthy people there are, the higher the GDP is. That’s sick.
Unfortunately, there is no profit in things that are beneficial to society such as saving lives, peace, sustainability, social responsibility. We live in a society where there are unprecedented levels of wealth, yet there are also unprecedented levels of social failings; increasing levels of violence, self harm amongst kids, drug abuse, mental illness, child abuse, etc. Does that not seem wrong? Activities which are detremental to society and human kind such as war, illness and disease, financial speculation, greed, etc; are the activities which whithin our monetary and economic system are rewarded with massive profits. That’s a defective system surely?
Mike – I’m afraid you’re desperately confused. You seem to think that because one advocates a political economy based on individual rights and voluntary individual interaction that one supports some socioeconomic norm that encourages selfishness, greed, social alienation etc. This is wrong. I am not in favour of prescriptive greed.
I also think you are confused about the meaning of the term “self-interst” It merely means whatever is according to one’s own subjective interests. It doesn’t necessarily imply greed or selfishness. What is in one’s self-interest could well include the welfare of one’s family, friends and community. To quote Milton Friedman “every individual serves his own private interest . . . . The great Saints of history have served their ‘private interest’ just as the most money grubbing miser has served his interest. The private interest is whatever it is that drives an individual.”
Let ask you why do you think that an ideologically legitimized monopoly on proactive violence (the state) is part of a “healthy balanced society”? When we give a group of people such a subsidized monopoly on violence, it has tragic consequences. We see this in history over and over and over again. War, mass starvation, poverty, democide… It’s this ideological subsidization of the state which lowers the cost of war not a market economy. The last decade has seen fewer war deaths than any in history Amongst other factors this in large part due to the erosion of nation-state ideology and global economic integration (yes globalization). Furthermore, economic freedom positively correlates with lower levels of violent crime.
Regarding the rest of your spiel it’s simply not true that economic measures do not consider welfare. In fact there is a whole branch of economics devoted to the subject called welfare economics If you want to relate some measure specifically to economic freedom than the above link showing how economic freedom positively correlates with higher levels of human development. Regarding GDP it is not a perfect measure (no one said it was) the problems with it are well understood, but it is still a useful tool.
For social justice, and against greed.
Christianity is not about anything other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not some misguided notions of justice and greed.
Under the new covenant God ask 5 things of us and gives us two commandments. One of them is not to vote Labour.
I think you’ve forgetten the lessons you learnt as a child Clare.