I have been intrigued by the swift spread of the ‘Occupy’ movement. It’s already a world-wide phenomenon. While its purpose has not clearly been articulated in the media, it’s got me thinking.
Campbell Jones offers as plausible an explanation and statement of purpose for the movement as any I’ve seen. His Dom Post article is worth a read. Here’s a taster:
The Occupy movement is, however, not only about economic and political forces, but equally about ideas. It objects not only to the remarkable inequalities between and within countries, but also challenges the ideas that have up until now sought to justify those inequalities.
The movement is fighting the idea that unregulated capitalism somehow benefits everyone, and argues instead that it is a system involving systematic inequality that principally serves the interests of a small elite.
Truth is, it is difficult to escape markets in the modern world. New Zealand sells dairy and other produce in the international market. Within New Zealand, buying and selling (a market) is our preferred method of distributing goods and services.
Markets have been working – more or less – since the caveman. (Routine profiteering in markets is relatively new, but that’s another story). Markets are created to efficiently solve distribution issues. But let’s not forget that they are a human construct, to solve human problems.
And markets are not the only solution.
Markets have no intrinsic sense of fairness. A simple market-economy would allocate the bulk of health and education resources to the highest bidder – likely those with the largest inherited wealth. And most people don’t think that’s fair.
If we accept that all people should have free access to decent healthcare and a reasonable level of education, it is because we think everyone should have the opportunities that this brings, and because we think our whole society benefits from it.
In the case of healthcare and education, we decide that a market cannot allocate these resources fairly, and so we find another method of allocating them – according to need.
Yes, the Occupy movement is drawing attention to the way in which resources are unevenly distributed, and the way in which they serve entrenched interests. But the movement is also reminding us that markets are not the only way in which resource allocation questions can be answered. (Think rapid redistribution of wealth during the French Revolution, for example.)
We should never think that markets are the only option. And if we think a market is the right option for any given question, we should always ask how it is set up, and whose interests it is designed to serve. These things can be changed.
In many if not most situations, markets make excellent servants – but terrible masters.
Unfortunately the political system where the Government holds all wealth and distributes it evenly (as with healthcare/education) has been tried before, and didn’t work so well…
It seems the occupy movement (particularly in Dunedin) has no real purpose. What do they actually want? Your post goes some of the way to answering this, but provides no real answer. Leaving it open to interpretation doesn’t really help.
The Occupy movement is about a bunch of spoiled kids protesting for the right to take the rights (to income) of others in order they can buy the latest iPad. And that will be the end of Western civilisation in a nutshell.
For me, the Rational Capitalist captures the farce well here:
http://dougreich.blogspot.com/2011/10/ows-dogs-chasing-cars.html
I don’t agree much with the following article from Infometrics Matt Nolan, but it should make you think a bit David:
http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2011/10/14/a-message-to-tomorrows-protesters/
Quote: “This protest and its message are wrong, and by doing it you’re both ignoring the real issues in the world and acting in a selfish way – and for that reason I think less of every single one of you.”
And finally, the inimitable George Reisman is a must read:
http://georgereismansblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/how-highly-productive-and-provident-one.html
Quote: “” … it turns out that virtually all of the problems the Occupy Wall Street protesters complain about are the result of the enactment of policies that they support and in which they fervently believe. It is their mentality, the Marxism that permeates it, and the government policies that are the result, that are responsible for what they complain about. The protesters are, in effect, in the position of being unwitting flagellants. They are beating themselves left and right and as balm for their wounds they demand more whips and chains. They do not see this, because they have not learned to make the connection that in violating the freedom of businessmen and capitalists and seizing and consuming their wealth, i.e., using weapons of pain and suffering against this small hated group, they are destroying the basis of their own well being.”
Here’s an interesting POV from the States. Makes a couple of good points. Please note, it’s a humour website, and also does have the occasional naughty word!
http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-types-wall-street-protesters-hurting-their-own-cause/
The Great NZ Divide –
1 in 5 kids live in poverty
150 richest people wealth grows by 20% in 12 months
median wages falling
Youth Unemployment at record levels
Luxury car sales at record levels
Food banks demand sky rocketing
wealthiest 10% receive tax cuts worth $1000s
Basic cost of living increase
Bailouts for finance companies
House sales worth more than 800K skyrocket
Government buy fleet BMW limos
people struggling with the price of petrol
tax loop holes for the rich continue
Food stamps rolled out for the poor
Its not envy just fact, easily googled and referenced.
Since we brought up Occupy Dunedin, I saw a group of them with McDonalds, Starbucks, and Marlbros. They seem to only be there because it’s a protest. They don’t actually seem to know what they’re protesting, and if they do – they are just plain hypocritical. And I’ve seen the same in OccupyLSX.
Since we’re posting lists, here’s what Occupy Dunedin have signs about, therefore I assume what they want to happen before they’ll leave (take from someone else on Facebook, can verify they’re pretty much correct afaik):
– The Mana Party is Elected
– Freedom of Gaza
– Israel’s War is Stopped
– Allan Hubbard is supported
– The International Socialists are happy
– The minimum wage is $15
– Rena is cleaned up
– John Key is voted out of Parliament
– Animals have equal rights
– Humans have equal rights
– Someone calls the councils 0800 number about drainage problems in north and south dunedin
– The council builds a time machine and takes back the stadium
– The NZ government comes up with a disaster relief plan that will be able to fix any problem in the future instantly
– Until everyone is treated as a special unique individual
– Oil drilling is outlawed in NZ
– The unions have some more power
– Capitalism is abolished
– “The system” is fixed
Ummm…
@ Thomas, you make a good point. Seems they are okay with fast food and bad coffee. Must be something else they are pissed about?
@ Tribeless what a load of unadulterated faeces
Bernie Mardoff should be put on a peddle stool and adored?
Citi Bank caught and prosecuted for lying to clients and betting against them – 285 mil fine
Goldman Sachs caught doing much the same – lying to clients and betting against them to boost their own profits and bonuses.
Numerous NZ directors of finance companies going to jail for fraud and cheating hard working people out of their money.
Poor capitalists? It has been they who have been gorging at the trough and stealing wealth.
Of course markets don’t have an intrinsic sense of fairness. Nor do they think of a sunny day in April. They are aggregates. They are not the right kind of thing to have a sense of fairness. That is for humans to have. The sentence is grammatical nonsense.
Even the most ardent free market advocate would agree with you that markets are not the only solution. However, a recognition of that does not just justify taking whatever undertaking is in question from civil society and into the hands of the state.
Although I disagree with David on many points here it is refreshing to see someone from Labour not being reflexively anti-market (as it is with Maryan affirming her support for free trade) even though it will cause some supporters to have conniptions. I do wish you were a little more skeptical of the OWS movement though. Even many American liberals [sic] are skeptical of the protester’s anti-capitalism. I would also recommend listening to the interviews on Howard Stern’s show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsJPKMvWDmY
What are you talking about Richie?
Madoff was a crook he should be in jail.
I’m as much against the firms you mention as you are and every government bailout: that’s part of the crony capitalist system, with is part and parcel of the fait money Keynesian socialist economic system I am so much against. Firms game playing government regulation at the expense of my freedom.
Crony capitalism is to laissez faire capitalism as sea horses are to horses.
You’ve got to start thinking about this stuff much deeper. Unfortunately none of these luddite protestors understand the difference either. Look at my Reisman quotation above:
http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2011/10/21/occupy-red-alert/comment-page-1/#comment-210169
Power and greed. money, manipulation of press, bankers and the fiat money system, corruption, wars, wholesale slaughter, propaganda promoted by the established right and their controlled media; yet we see organisation for massive wealth accumulation consistently by a few as a result.
Inequity is a measure of how power is wielded.
You can dissect it however suits you the inequity remains and is growing.
On top of this, the finite world and biosphere cannot continue to be exploited at the present rate and will not support the overshoot of mankind.
Many don’t want to see it so grumble about protesters and display their mean spirited ignorance.
How do you think the world will be for children of the next generation.
Many don’t seem to have any idea and also don’t care.
Irresponsibility has dire consequences beyond words of argument.
OWS movement is the most significant expression of will in recent times. If news media was not so controlled by those with power and extreme wealth then we may have had significant change and never got to the developing mess.
Just consider that it takes on the average 4 tonnes of oil to supply one tonne of grain in the world of today.
The price of oil will rise and rise and rise.
Cornucopians have an answer – for what it may be worth.
There are bigger considerations than those our politicians are willing to face.
@ Tribeless
The extent of the corruption amongst leading American corporations caused starvation in rural China and house prices to fall in Linwood, Christchurch. It wasn’t a small number of bankers that were involved – such a feat required dedicated collaboration and commitment to nefarious fraudulence on a scale never seen before.
You argue that these were the “bad” capitalists and that true laissez faire capitalists are much different. I’m not convinced.
Redistribution isn’t a dirty word.
The type of system you want would sell the ground from under the feet of children not yet born.
Man, life is tough for the poories at the moment
Not to mention they are tweeting from iPhones and using Macs to play their music. Until I get free pizza every Friday I’ll be camping outside of that big penis thing we have going on down here. Viva la revolution!
@Ian 2.36pm.
“It seems the occupy movement (particularly in Dunedin) has no real purpose.”
These ‘occupations’ are the beginnings of participatory democracy as people become aware of the amorality of the neo liberal ideology of the past 30 years and its beguiling, dehumanising worship at the altar of the freemarket. It’s hideous creed, aided and abetted by highpriests like Joseph,Thatcher,Reagan,Douglas,Bush,Ashcroft and now Key, has caused misery to thousands and many have now had enough. It is imperative that we think of options.
‘What has gone wrong is that Globalisation has occurred without any rules- any social rules,logical rules,awareness of people. We need to change the Global Financial Architecture for the 21st century – and this time include human beings/society in the equation.’ (heard on BBC world news, “The World Debate” May 2009.)
@Ian 2.36pm.
“It seems the occupy movement (particularly in Dunedin) has no real purpose.”
These ‘occupations’ are the beginnings of participatory democracy as people become aware of the amorality of the neo liberal ideology of the past 30 years and its beguiling, dehumanising worship at the altar of the freemarket, and gather against it’s effects.
It’s hideous creed , aided and abetted by high priests like Thatcher, Reagan, Douglas, Ashcroft and now Key to name but a few, has caused misery to thousands and many have now had enough. It is imperative that we think of options.
‘What has gone wrong is that Globalisation has occurred without any rules- any social rules, logical rules, awareness of people. We need to change the Global Financial Architecture for the 21st century – and this time include human beings/society in the equation.’ (heard on BBC world news, “The World Debate” May 2009.)
@Tribeless
Perhaps you should go and join the protesters; so far the occupy wall street movement hasn’t offered solutions it is pointing out the corruption, unfairness of bailouts and perversion of the democratic system by corporations, much the same as you are decrying. I thought you would find some libertarian among them.
Call it what system you like; one of the main causes of the financial crises was the trading in unregulated market of debt derivatives – it was a Laissez-faire market place.
Those involved knew they were rubbish – a friend of mine described the impending doom in late 05, he worked for a big trading house in London as a sort of accountant for the debt derivative traders. Did any one care? No, they were making to much money, he sold off his realestate because he knew what was coming. That is nothing to do with bailouts or Keynesian economics, just greed by those with the power to change it.
Sorry guys you just dont get it.
The people are saying that the current systems doesnt work and they want a fairer system that isnt able to be manipulated by those with the wealth.
Us normal people who dont care about the ins and outs of the system and how it works, do understand that we all have less than 3 years ago when the melt down happened, but those at the top with the true power seem to have more.
You can argue about rich anvy and all the other BS, but people are saying that they have had enough and change is going to happen, you are either helping find a better way or you will be left behind.
If you shut your eyes and ears and think its only a few protesters occupying a corner with silly signs you are being very shortsighted.
Those with the power and money cannont control the flow of information anymore.
Sorry about the double dose above, my edit became mangled.
@Waterboy
“If you shut your eyes and ears and think its only a few protesters occupying a corner with silly signs you are being very shortsighted.
Those with the power and money cannont control the flow of information anymore.”
So true …… for now anyway. Stay alert. Greed is a powerful motivator.
It was a laissez-faire market place if you choose to ignore the morass of government interventions in the marketplace and the byzantine array of regulations (including 115 regulatory agencies). For example, are you going to ignore the change to the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) (the first private securitization of loans were of CRA loans), to make banks prove they were making efforts at lending to the ‘underprivileged”, which led to the creation of the subprime mortgage market in the US? Are you going to ignore the role of the government sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (the federal guarantee of which gave risky securtizations of their mortgages an implied triple A rating) or the role of the Federal housing Authority in directing mortgage lending to low income borrowers? Are you going to ignore the the labyrinthine mess of regulations that conferred upon the rating agencies (Fitch, S&P, and Moody’s) government protection and privilege and effectively barred anyone from competing with them to create a regulation made oligopoly? Are you going to ignore the Federal Reserve keeping interest rates low for five years after the dot com crash and the credit expansion it fostered? Are you going to ignore the role of the capital requirements under the Basel accords in the financial crisis?
In the case of the recent crisis the thick web of regulations built up and up interacted in ways that regulators were ignorant of to create the systematic risk that lead to systematic failure. The Community Reinvestment Act, Government sponsored enterprises such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and the department of housing and urban development all worked to create a spate of government insured subprime lending and securitisation, the capital requirements in Basel I and II, tied to the judgements of the ratings agencies which were canonized in regulations, encouraged banks to hold double and triple A rated asset backed securities, and the SEC regulations which protected the three major ratings agencies from competition, essentially giving them state privileged status, all interacted to move banks and investors in the same direction and make them ignorant of the risks and lead to the crisis.
You cannot disentangle such a chaos of interventionism and lay the blame on an imaginary laissez-faire marketplace. It’s a shame so many still hold to the fringe and tenuous explanation of “deregulation”. If you wish to read a good academic paper on the causes of the financial crisis I recommend A Crisis of Politics, Not Economics: Complexity, Ignorance, and Policy Failure.
Wish I understood what the “Occupy Movement” is really about. It appears in New Zealand to be a gaggle of middle class children with nothing to do – probably Uni students with time on their hands trying to emulate real poverty situation as say in USA and Greece, among others.
Good point Cloaca, I can just see the governments of the world biting their nails with worry over the tents and signs in that bastion of capitalist corporate greed that is, Hagley Park, Christchurch.
Waterboy, so normal people don’t care about the ins and outs of the ‘system’ and how it works, but they want to change the ‘system’ because they want a fairer ‘system’. If you don’t get the ‘system’, how can you effect change in the ‘system’? If you don’t care about what’s not working, how can you fix it?
But you’re right, things have gone horribly wrong but you can’t keep blaming the banks and the American’s for the worlds ills. Governments have been compliant in this entire mess, the EU, UK, US, left wing/right wing. They’ve basically reaped the rewards in the happy times and passed the buck when the hangover sets in.
“What I’m asking for is a new economic order, I don’t know how to construct that, I’m not an economist.” – Michael Moore.
Cloaca
As you point out your view is limited by information.
A bigger picture is hardly likely to come without some work in finding various view points and sorting out what makes sense with the observations of politics and patterns you have experienced.
The net allows this as never before but you do have to put in a bit of time for personal education.
For understanding to have meaning, recognising there is a problem is fundamental. Poverty in NZ has increased and never more than under govt supporting free market approach to the economy.
Whether protesters can be denigrated is hardly a qualifier when understanding what the problem is.
Inequity, and gross inequity are two to start with followed by the cause including criminal corruption.
Anyway have a look at this site each day and you will at least have a bit more information.
http://occupywallst.org/
As a counter to what you read in NZ papers and hear on media you could try;
http://www.alternet.org/
How can there be a laissez faire market place without a laissez faire economy Richie? As Hayek said, there’s no such thing as a middle way between socialism and capitalism.
The asset bubbles were solely a matter of the government planners and central bank system which had set up a wave of fiat money swishing around the globe looking for a home (hence the products you speak of: thought the GFC is much more complicated than that). It’s almost impossible for me when only random posts make it out of the Gulag of moderation here, but if you do nothing else, get yourself informed by reading articles at the Mises bailout reader:
http://mises.org/daily/3128
Start with the housing bubbly section.
Tribeless. No-one is scared of you. We are busy people and don’t sit at our computers waiting for you to comment. You are warned. Clare
(Moderators: why are you so scared of me?)
Then, Clare, why will no politician debate those who question your header posts? What’s the point of this if you’re not justifying the policy you would fit on me like a strait-jacket against my will?
(And you’re certainly not moderating chronologically).
You are wrong and I’ve had a gutsful of you constantly breaching rules by arguing with moderation. Have five weeks commenting somewhere else. Trevor
The last paragraph of Raven’s post above states the case well (how do you do that with no typos?).
And getting back to Reisman’s point that the Occupy protestors are simply protesting against the policy they stand for ( http://georgereismansblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/how-highly-productive-and-provident-one.html ), the best businessmen in the US understand that the US has long left capitalism for crony capitalism (that’s the State planned economy) – hat-tip WhaleOil:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8841347/Steve-Jobs-regretted-trying-to-beat-cancer-with-alternative-medicine-for-so-long.html
Quote:
Mr Jobs told him that the US was too unfriendly to business, and that companies would rather build factories in China than in America, where they were frustrated by “regulations and unnecessary costs”.
…
The Apple chief also criticised America’s uncompetitive education system, which he said was “crippled by union work rules.” He said Mr Obama should have schools open until 6pm, 11 months a year.
From what I’ve learned about Occupy Dunedin, if you put aside the political and union opportunists who think it’s a vehicle for their ambitions, I think the crux of it is:
- the system is sick
- we need to get rid of the system
- a new socialist system will pop out of the chaos
There is conflicting ideas on democracy, while they talk of “participatory democracy” they don’t want our current democracy – one person saying we need to “get rid of it and start again”.
I wonder if we get to vote on this.
This is worth reading:
http://thestandard.org.nz/an-occupation-occupied-what’s-next
“What I’m asking for is a new economic order, I don’t know how to construct that, I’m not an economist.” – Michael Moore.
Sorry for my waffle way above in an earlier post.
This was posted by softstarter, but the above is what the masses want.
For all of you who don’t ‘get’ why the people are protesting all over the world (and probably wouldn’t have ‘got’ why the abolitionists protested slavery, or why Kate Sheppard and her mates protested for woman to have the right to vote, have a look at this cartoon….
sums up the right-wing’s approach to the occupy movement, brilliantly.
http://images2.dailykos.com/i/user/2722/TMW2011-10-12colorKOS.png
Cooperative democracy or economic democracy are both a move to more control by the many for the many.
The first thing you can do apart from waffle. is move your bank account out of transnational banks. We have a NZ based bank that key would love to sell off but while it is there put your money where it belongs – in NZ hands.
A massive movement of account holders would be a signal hard to ignore.