And on another note, re white-anting; the attempts by the Greens to encroach on Labour territory is also happening in Australia. Former AWU Secretary Bill Shorten (now Assistant Finance Minister) got it right when he said that people will always need unions and that Labor and unions were a “bulwark of democracy”.
“The idea that people, when they go to work, don’t need assistance is wrong.”
Mr Shorten said his view of unionism was not based on the idea that workers were stupid or unable to think for themselves.
But an individual working in a large company would always need support.
“The company has a human resources manager, the company belongs to an employer association, the company has lawyers,” he said.
“Who do you have?”
Mr Shorten said Labor’s mission to deliver social justice remained in place and that the party’s strongest asset was its ability to tailor policies to help people cope with change.
He said he did not want to spark a verbal stoush with the Greens but noted that the minor party had no economic story.
The New Zealand Labour Party has its roots in the trade union movement. The unions are evolving and adapting as they should.The Labour Party draws on talent from many walks of life, as it should. It’s perspectives are not always in direct alignment with unions.
But let’s not every forget where we came from and what our enduring values are. And how important that relationship is.
I won’t.
Wow
Good to see the left so energized. And good to see that Labour is brave enough to have this sort of debate out in public.
Do what Clare said. Go out and campaign for votes for your party. Greens are good most of the time, Mana great if they become coherent and disciplined. Go ahead and do it.
The sad reality right now is that fighting over the existing support block will not do it, Key and co will be back. Go out and persuade those who are undecided that they are better with a progressive Government.
I think I learnt the lesson pretty early on that votes aren’t an entitlement. They have to be earnt and you can never take anything for granted.
But I also think that Labour values are worth valuing.
And George D: I have worked closely with members of the right and left of the ALP and unions for a long time. The arguments are intense. The personality politics can be worse. I know the AWU as well as the AMWU and am on good terms with both.
And both unions are working together on a number of issues, including Australia’s manufacturing future.
NZ’s union movement is doing the same.
Clare if the Greens are encroaching on your territory it’s because your party isn’t speaking up enough and doesn’t have a direction. The really progressive things that the Greens have always argued for, Labour didn’t achieve in Government and are pretending to believe in now under a leader who’s always gone to the right in government.
Clare and all the other Labour MP’s I know don’t take anyone’s support for granted. They work huge hours, spend weekends knocking on doors, and take constant knocks for what they do.
We don’t always get it right, but people like Clare and Darien have spent most of their lives trying to make a difference for working people, and when given the chance in government they did. George, they even re-inserted penal rates into the Holidays Act. And of course, most of what was achieved in that period was achieved with the Greens.
None of that means that Labour has any divine right to anyone’s support. Each party has to fight for its share of the vote robustly. I work with Labour, Green, and non-aligned people and every single one I know hopes that at the end of this year Labour and the Greens are working together in some way to deliver a humane, forward looking, and decent government for NZ again. Hope we can all focus our energy on that objective!
“George, they even re-inserted penal rates into the Holidays Act.”
I’m not talking about the Holidays Act, Michael. I’m talking about the people who clean my carpets after hours. When I worked in an Australian hotel last year, I got a hell of a lot of money for working at 3am on a Sunday morning. Here, I’d get exactly the same as I would 10am Monday.
“Hope we can all focus our energy on that objective!”
I’m not sure that you and your party are focused on that objective at all.
Plus when Labour had the chance to include the Greens in Government they didn’t, they went with Peter and Winnie instead, for nine years the Greens were always the bridesmaid never the bride!
Winnie held the balance of power!
Go Labour!
!
i have to agree with claire on this.. for gods sake, listen to yourselves.. i’ve heard schoolchildren debate with a better grasp of the issues than 90% of commenters here… tory and green supporters rabbiting on about politics being some kind of auction.. the vote goes to the highest bidder… if that is what passes for the current political wisdom, then we’re already too far gone to stop the slide, followed by the plunge, that leaves us looking groggily up at our new owners..
stupid…..stupid…..stupidd!
@ bbfloyd
Please enlighten us to what we are unable to grasp. I’ve heard some schoolchildren debate very well so I’m not sure if that is a bad thing.
You have stated that people have said that politics is some kind of auction. I read back through the posts and couldn’t find any statements like that.
Clare accused The Greens of scurrilous “white anting” and “encroaching on Labour territory” without actually referring to what they had actually done. What have the Greens done exactly?
Maybe 90% of the people that have posted do have a grasp of the issues and it’s you that hasn’t a clue.
Where have the rights of new zealander workers gone which our fathers fought for are you going let national ruin the rest that we have i ask.
The best labour gov i think would be norm kirk. A lot of people today would not know of the lockout in 1951 wharfies i think the speaker at the time was jock barnes.
@Curious – frequently saying negative things about Labour in an attempt to cannibalise their votes! I have heard it for 3 years.
I was a labour voter and union member for more than 20 years .I am not anymore , because I got sick of this type of arrogance from the party and the epmu that is supposed to represent me. I voted national last time , for the first time , and I’m going to do so again.Good luck with the election.
Such hysteria…
@Greg – I think what I like less than the RWNJs are the people who make a point of posting here as “disillusioned former Labour voters”. If you are in an industry with a need for high union membership/union representation, then: good luck with your next NACT government.
Claire’s original post was hardly “scurrilous.” The best efforts by posters to personalise this and take it as some sort of assault by Labour on its potential coalition partners is what is scurrilous. The supposed left-wing doing their very best to tear each other to pieces is scurrilous. The recriminations about what Labour didn’t do in 9 years in government (remembering that the party caucus is largely rejuvenated since the last Labour government) and constant allegations of hypocrisy is scurrilous.
The MPs who post here are trying to represent you, and (through interacting with you) to understand what that entails. Whilst they are not entitled to have readers agree with what they say, they deserve better than to be shouted down in the child-like fashion that I see above..
Hello Tim , thanks for your reply. The reason I still come to this site is that I hope Labour will change. I first voted in the 1984 election when Lange won, and labour geniunly represented me then, very well , for 20 years.However,I have managed to improve my life , without union help,or any handouts, and I find it scurrilous to find that they still expect my support , when they no longer want to support me. Now that I employ 2 wonderful people I am seen as the “enemy” by the union.
I totally agree with your last paragraph,lively debate is good , shouting people down is unacceptable.
Best regards Greg
Gotta love the way Clare’s defenders think that if they denigrate us by saying we’re acting like children they can avoid answering any of the questions raised or recognising any of the points made. And how unlike children(or perhaps sheep) would we be if we just did what ‘teacher’ said without questioning & making our own decisions? Because this seems to be what you are telling us to do when you insult me & others for asking questions, making our own analysis & drawing our own conclusions.
No one ‘Buys my vote’ I will vote for the person & party that will best represent me & who’s policies & behaviour make me believe they will be best for the country. Since Labour seems inclined to generally support National in the name of compromise I do not see them winning this election. They have simply alienated to large a group of their core-traditional voters. So I am looking to help build a strong opposition who will stand up to National & follow through with what they say. I see our best hope for the future in this election to be to utilise MMP & build a large enough opposition to shift National from their position of sole leadership. Maybe once that is done even Labour might dare to disagree in action, not just word, when National call on their support.
They greens don’t just talk they take action and make their stands with strength, intelligence and persistance.
Although I’m ’seeing’ plenty of talk from Labour their actions are not backing it up & Phil Goff’s Policy of avoiding difficult questions whenever possible, rather than dealing with the issues raised, is not indicative of strength. Neither is Clare’s earlier ‘tantrum’ in her first reply, let alone the initial post itself, indicative of nearly the level of either intelligence or integrity that I had accredited her with.
But like I said, at least I found this out before the election, not afterwards.
And don’t worry, thanks to ‘cut-&-paste’ I have passed on all of this, including comments & responses, to friends who, like myself, believed that Clare was that extremely rare animal, an honest politician (& you really did a good job with that ‘image’ down here in Dunedin), so that they will also know beforehand & can take that into consideration when deciding their votes.
After all, just like children, we learn from what you do, not what you say and what did you do here girl? You put your foot in your mouth big time then forgot to take it out before you opened it again and in so doing you showed us the attitudes behind the pretty words. And who did you look like as you ranted about poverty in an effort to distract us from our questions? You looked just like John Key doing photoshoots in Christchurch after the earthquake so everyone would think he cared.
I saw the AWU in action during the wide comb war, the shearing arm of the AWU doesn’t exist anymore because of their extreme right wing fascist attitudes, similar to the freezing workers union and the Cook Strait Ferry workers union, the fascist dictatorial attitudes of the union hierarchy to protect their own salaried jobs was a joke, those sort of unions can’t work, they are a mafia.
@ bbfloyd – Clare makes a huge assumtion that the labour movement’s bloc vote is Labour’s for the taking. It’s not. Unions might urge their members to vote Labour, but at the end of the day you do the union rank and file a huge injustice if you believe that they will all simply follow the party line and blindly do what their union bosses demand.
Did you see the 3News poll last night? Only 30% of those who support Labour want Phil Goff to be the PM. That means that 70% of those who want to vote for Labour this year support someone other than Goff, and – shock, horror – I’d venture to suggest that a reasonable number are comfortable with John Key as PM, even though they vote Labour. That indicates that the majority of those who will vote Labour in November (those who are left after this thread, and others of a similar ilk) have minds of their own, and will not play follow the leader by rote.
In the past few elections at least most people who gave one of their votes to the Green Party gave their other to Labour, I am sure Clare knows this which makes this column even more bizarre. Green voters ARE Labour voters.
I support the Labour Party’s position on many issues and usually give the electorate candidate my vote but I will be party voting Green this year as I have for many years because the policies and voting record are more progressive in so many areas and I believe it is good for our parliament to have that progressive voice in government. There are many Green voters active in the union movement in NZ and Australia, this is a strength for our movements and given the state of the AWU this seems a strange place from which to be trumpeting strategic comment.
“And I’d wager the general financial position of Greens voters is probably about the same as Labour voters, if not lower, considering how cosy Labour is getting to business”
And I’d wager you are wrong, the Greens I bump into are perfectly middle class.
And the Greens I know are all pretty terribly poor. Does my anecdata cancel out yours?
@ Spud 12:14,
That’s because Labour have progressively shifted towards the centre… The greens are just filling the vacuum left behind.
In terms of a Left government this isn’t a bad thing, Labour needs to get as much centrist vote as possible off the nat’s for the left to win the election. If they shed votes from the traditionally further left to the Greens or Mana at least they are not lost.
There are not currently enough votes in the left side of the sandpit and fighting over them will not win the election. Labour need to shift even further to the centre and ‘white ant’ the Nats.
Are you suggesting, by the use of “white-anting”, that the Greens are somehow not entitled to solicit support from supposed Labour supporters? By the use of that term do you imply that the Greens are not playing fairly? Or has your sense of entitlement to electoral support simply overcome you?
@Chris M.
Most Green voters I know are champagne socialists who come from wealthy families. They are hipsters in their 20s-30s who get everything paid for my their parents, and their “job” is play guitar at gigs.
These people have not worked for anything in their life, and vote Greens/Labour because they think socialism is trendy. They don’t have enough insight to realise that there are people working hard in menial jobs paying taxes so that rich Green voters can get an interest-free student loan for their combined law/philosophy degree.
@ cricklewood – partially agree
Labour have moved to the centre and pandered to the middle class and upper middle class in recent times (Clark Administration). By doing this Labour have neglected those votes further to the left and The Greens have stepped in to fill that gap. The Greens have also cornered the environmentally conscious vote. The problem with this is that the middle class still view labour as being a “lolly scramble” party that panders to beneficiaries. The middle class/ upper middle class are more concerned about the economy and their own security rather than that of the welfare of those on the bottom rung.
Just my opinion.
Davis, I’m in my late 20s, and I’ve never earned more than $25k in any year of my life. A bunch of reasons for this, but a deregulated labour ‘market’ saturated with casualised and part-time jobs has a lot to do with it. I grew up in pretty harsh poverty too – winters without electricity, foodbanks and unemployment benefits, living off the kindness of farmers. These things are not abstractions to me.
I was at a Greens event on the weekend. A few well off, most of us just getting by. Most of the Labour activists I know are very comfortably middle-class, but they’re sincere in what they believe so I don’t judge them for it. The Greens have become more middle-class, and greyer. But so have Labour. And that disconnect from the majority of New Zealanders hurts them both. If you want to look at why Labour is languishing in the polls, you might want to consider the destruction of connection with the base that has occurred in the last 30 years, and how the Clark-era patch-up wasn’t all that robust.
Greens need to pull their head in and call for party votes where they candidates could split the left and put NACTs into power. Their only rationale for existence is to promote a utopia of clean, green capitalism, which is worth promoting in order to demonstrate its futility, but not at the expense of a Labour Government that has its base in the working class. Of course Labour has done fuck all since the 80s to represent that class, but at least the class can wake up from its torpor and hold Labour to account, in which drama the Greens would be a total distraction.
The idea that Greens are ‘champagne socialists’ is nonsense. I grew up in poverty. Yes, that’s cold and hungry. Many of the Green supporters I know are not wealthy. Many of the Labour supporters I know are well-off. In truth both parties have a mix of supporters.
I am Green because Labour has persistently failed to understand the urgency of environmental issues or to act on them when in government. And not understood how the poorest often suffer most when the environment is degraded.
[deleted. offensive. chris]. The problem with your Loony Left party is the big mouths standing and your leader Philin Goof. Wake up and smell the roses, your socialist policies are a thing of the past, even your buddies the Greens are seeing this.
Great post Clare, keep it up!
Claire, We have a problem. The threshold is it. Kick the Greens too much and you can push them below the threshold and lose up to 5% of the left vote. well not quite but National gains most. On present polling, labour will effectively get about 30%+ of that disenfranchised green vote in the form of list members, but National would get
50%+! Clearly the greens should run with you! But then we thought that about the Maori Party too. MMP was not meant to be easy but clearly it is fair in that it is proportional and reflects the wishes of the people. I believe that there should be a much lower threshold (reduces the cheating behind the ‘Epsom Fiddle’ But that by some legislative or regulatory means small parties could not bring a gov`t down- eg could not vote on Confidence or Supply. Geoffrey should be able to suggest a fair formula? This would largely remove the tail/wag/ dog issue which obsessess lots
( Deleted. offensive. Darien ). As a Labour voter (or former) can I just say how unbelievably arrogant to assume those votes are Labour’s territory. Those votes come from people. Your smugness and arrogance makes you look petty and desperate to a population that is quite frankly sick of being told how their lives should be run, and having people telling them what is best for them. Don’t use people’s suffering (eg.Cancer) as a political football. It’s a sick and perverted way to make yourself look better when you’re clearly out of touch with what the rest of the country thinks of you. It’s as simple as that. And how ridiculous of you to say on stuff that the blog has turned feral – you opened this can of worms. My vote goes to National this election.
Claire –
I have voted Labour in the past, but I am not an ideological true believer and I don’t think there’s any intrinsic “importance in being Labour” as you put it. Nevertheless my vote is worth the same on polling day as a true believer’s, so you may believe it is worth having.
I voted the Clark Government in in 1999. I had never been old enough to vote before, and after reading all the National and Labour material I could find I simply decided I liked Labour’s ideas and people more. WE WILL DELIVER, followed by a bullet point list of things you were going to deliver. I liked that.
I began party voting Green in 2005 because it occurred to me then that my vote did more good by ensuring they remained around, than it would by adding a modicum of a percent to Labour’s majority.
I’m sorry but Labour is just a basket case now. How can I have confidence in the Labour caucus to lead the country, when you write mad blog posts like this, about other parties are somehow encroaching on “your territory” and the idea that voters should just vote for an inept party out of some kind of loyalty and allegiance to Labour?
Please don’t think you are an only port of call, or that the options to your left and right are unpalatable.
National is not as far to the right of you as you keep insisting they are, and Key really does not look like the evil madman you keep saying he is. The Green Party owes you nothing; they are developing ideas they think will better the country, and I like people like that.
So please don’t tell me I should show loyalty and allegiance to Labour. It’s a contest. Convince me you are the right team to be running the country, please.
Clare Curran is right to observe the continued emergence of the Green Party. She is wrong to suggest that this party is “encroaching” on the territory of Labour – in the Green Party Labour has a ready-made ally in pushing social values rather than economic gain at any cost.
This means that Labour does not need to go through the kind of rituals that National/ACT/Peter Dunne are going through.
A lot of people can’t find any reason to vote for Labour, and that is why National is set to govern alone if it chooses to.
Sorry but removing GST from fresh produce does not do it for me. However I am impressed with the line that Kevin Hague has taken on Pike River.
The world has changed a great deal since Marx wrote that ‘working men of all countries’ had nothing to lose but their chains.
A couple of centuries of capitalism have resulted in the vast majority having a great deal to lose indeed.
In time Labour will cotton on to this fact.
Hey, c’mon everybody settle down.
How far away is the election?
Let us all concentrate on that instead of this playground crapola.
The (arrogant) attitude that the workers vote is (almost) Labours right and that worker political needs are best met by Labour shows some degree of out of touch almost touched. The ALP is wavering and fights every day to stay in government; Bill Shorten is very to the right of the part as is the AWU and part of a NSW political clique that is trying to retain inner Sydney.
That you regurgitate such mush as he has said on the issue, could cause one to rush to conclude that you write with a very strong Right hand yourself, that aside.
Look to the benches next time in parliament and see who represents the West Coast, Labours birthplace.
Such lazy thoughts in Labour should cause the CTU to growl but given you (Labour) are in tight with the white collar majority and your party president has said very Little on this, (which makes this blue collar unionist even more concerned), shows the insipid partnership you have both become…
Evan, I disagree with you. The Greens are definitely encroaching on Labour territory. They’re becoming more mainstream and voteable (if that’s a word). Its getting less and less difficult to view National as the party slightly right of centre and the Greens as the party slightly left of centre.
The Greens have quite an attractive policy on tertiary student support – attractive for those of us who are middle-of-the-road parents of kids at university. They’re also pretty unattractive in their transport policies that ignore the provinces – but probably not worse than Labour derisively calling the road from Northland a “Holiday Highway” for Aucklanders.
Reading through the Greens’ policies, I have a like or hate opinion. Whereas with Labour’s policies it’s more of a “meh” opinion. I do think the Greens are moving into position to be the larger party of the left.
Oh Dear Clare! You seem to be losing the plot!
The thing is Clare, Russel Norman has far more credibility that your own leader at the moment. You could be looking for a new job come November and Labour might become a third party! You reap what you sow Clare, and some of the stuff you come out with is pure manure.
I doubt that the Labour Party could be pushed into third place at this election, but I bet the sort of arrogance implied in Clare’s post was displayed by the UK Liberals in the early part of the 20th Century. Just before they were pushed into decades of relative oblivion by the then more relevant Labour Party.
There’s too much of the 1930s and 1950s, and not enough of the 21st century in the current Labour mindset, at least in the way it looks at people’s aspirations and expectations. Unless it can change that, and quickly, its prospects don’t look promising.
If anyone could be grumpy about encroachment wouldn’t it be the greens? I mean without them both major parties would still have next to no green policies, and even ACT now thinks about it and then defaults tot he profit bottom line. Yet the Greens have never been part of a Government despite their influence for us all to see.
You’re onto it George.
“since Labour seems inclined to generally support National in the name of compromise I do not see them winning this election.” They have opposed heaps of stuff!
90 day fire at will springs to mind! 
“They greens don’t just talk they take action and make their stands with strength, intelligence and persistance.” – So does Labour, man I remember Labour at those ECE cuts protests!
“Phil Goff’s Policy of avoiding difficult questions whenever possible, rather than dealing with the issues raised, is not indicative of strength.” – Are you kidding me? He fronts up all the time!
@cricklewood, Hi
, Labour has shifted to the left in the past 3 years. You say that a vote going to the Greens would not be lost, but if that same vote went to Labour it wouldn’t be lost either because either Labour wins and brings in the Greens or Na, Na, National, choke 
, wins and both parties kinda lose. 
@curious – treats bennies like people, also had low unemployment!
I tell ya what, I’m a West Coaster, born and breed. In our region we rely on the Primary Industries as the back bone of our communities and economy – and with a Party such as the Greens consistently attacking said industries, we have learnt to not vote Green. However when people say that this seat is a ‘Labour Stronghold’ well they have another thing coming. Last election National wiped out Labour South of the Grey River (Mid way through the electorate) taking almost every single booth. They also took the seat – first time since 1990 and second time in history. I hope that Labour have got the message that no vote, booth, town, seat or whatever can be taken for granted, because its not the public that’s the problem – its the Party itself. Quite frankly Claire – I can’t blame the people, but I can blame Labour.
Clare, it’s not the Greens that are encroaching… you lot are encroaching on the Tories…and you have been for years now. you’re SO scared of losing the middle you’ve drifted/lurched/marched blindly to the RIGHT.
Your economic policies are right wing, your talking points are right wing. You all seem WAY too scared to behave in a left wing manner at any time.
My grandparents and parents voted Labour , I voted Labour for years until you lot started selling off our assets…and I think in desperation a few years back i voted for you…won’t happen again, unless you get BACK TO YOUR ROOTS ( which I can’t see happening, you’re all too comfortable) I’ll probably vote Mana this time, although i’m almost at the point where I can’t be arsed voting… but I WILL go to the polling booth, if only to vote MMP… National/Labour …. same horse different jockeys.
Problem with your suggestion, Wanda, is that there just aren’t enough traditional left wing votes to be won any more.
However much the comrades may hate the fact, the success of the capitalist system has led to a situation where most people have far more discretionary income than would have even been dreamt about fifty years ago. Paradoxically for the left their big problem is that the workers now have far more to lose than their chains.
If it wants to remain a mass party, capable of being the major part of a future governing coalition, Labour HAS to attract votes from the middle ground. And most of the party hierarchy understand that promising people a return to the heavily controlled economies of half a century ago won’t cut it in 2011.
It’s almost an inevitable part of the modernisation process that there’s a ‘get back to your roots’ call from the die hards. How quickly and effectively the party deals with that sort of nonesense determines how quickly it becomes electable again.
Liam I tink we can all agree that national and some significant section of west coasters believe mining is the way forward. I agree with the occassioal attempt by labour to get discourse and support into non primary inustries, Clare Curran often has posted on a move to support other industries as our viable long term future.
I read each year the report from the Trust which manages and runs the fund allocated by NZers to the West Coast to compensate for the halt to logging Rimu etc. That fund, its objectives and progress is great to see.
I have family living on the Coast, most of the children have left for Christchurch to study and move in different directions to mining and forestry. It is NOT because they cant get jobs in those industries but because they don’t want jobs in those industries. Getting the West Coast region diversified beyond those two industries is vital to its long term future.
My family there are all very anti labour and the former PM because of the logging and mining decisions but they also acknowledge none of their children wanted to work in those industries anyway…
I believe we’re all in this together which is why I watch that fund annually because of its intention to enable Coasters to chart a course outside those two industries. Perhaps a line of action for Coasters would be to lobby hard for more money into that trust, a few more 100s of millions to diversify away from those industries to create a braoder, survivable base for the future?. I for one would support that. I wonder if National would?
I agree with you George, sadly because “success” of capitalism has meant to my observation the endless pursuit of more stuff, more consumables and a disconnect from wat life and stuff might otherwise be about. I am not saying poor = happy and rich = sad, that would be trite.
But it looks and feels like success in capitalism is a big old treadmill, once you’re on, and your debt gros, and your desire for stuff grows, you can’t get off without serious injury.
I accept thee dismantling of the system to one less demanding and unlikely in my lifetime, and if it were it would not be replaced with anything but another self serving version of itself, tweaked at the edges.
Socialism and communism as exhibited as systems have also failed so this is not a left wing commie view I am hankering after.
I watched with dismay the self righteousness of the British MP espousing on morality and right from wrong during the riot as those his own backyad and those of his colleagues were amoral compass for us all. It’s always someone else who needs to change.
George says :”However much the comrades may hate the fact, the success of the capitalist system has led to a situation where most people have far more discretionary income than would have even been dreamt about fifty years ago.”
Ahhh , and which planet do YOU live on ? When I was a kid EVERYONE had a phone, now people all around me are ditching landlines because of the price. Milk was cheap and kids were healthy. Houses were affordable ( and built to last).
Yeah, ok, so we can all head down to the $2/$5/$8 shop and buy bags full of shit from China, or we can book up large screen TV’s ( so we can watch endless tripe) but I don’t agree that people ARE better off and if you land on PLanet Earth any time soon you’ll see that Capitalism is NOT working, that greed is king and that its the workers( or what’s left of them) that, in the end, bail out the big capitalists time after time.
Wanda – check the proportion of the average wage that was spent on housing and food 50 years ago, and the proportion that’s spent on these things now. In the 50s/60s few could afford, for example, overseas holidays or the plethora of electronic gadgets which are today commonplace across the mass of New Zealanders.
You accuse me of not being of this planet.
Perhaps you should consider which epoch you’re stuck in…