Poor old Heather Roy has fallen for something no one of her experience should. She has signed off a media release drafted by an Act intern suggesting that Labour opposing the Act bill to gut students’ associations has cost the taxpayer a fortune.
Pity she didn’t read it and think first.
The release is predicated on the assumption that Parliament has sat longer than it would have otherwise. It hasn’t. Not one single minute longer. Not an extra cent has been spent.
I understand why she is unhappy. The Labour Party is using it’s ability to delay legislation to attempt to push the bill past the election. Only Act really supports it. The Nats are lukewarm because they know that the transfer of roles to the institutions will increase fees and thereby loan liabilities for the taxpayer. The bill has never had a proper economic impact report.
She has every right to complain about us raining on her parade.
But for a party that is meant to embrace economic realism she needs to understand and then brief her intern on the difference between average and marginal costs.
Trevor, why should students be denied the choice of whether they join a student association? Why is joining a student association compulsory? Are you saying you want trade unions to be compulsory as well? How about federated farmers for all farmers? All the AA for all drivers?
Go Labour – student unions need saving!
!
Spud, the bill heaven forbids give students a choice whether or not to join a student association. Unless you are suggesting students are complete morons and cannot decide for themselves whether or not to join a student assocation. Just like every other organisation has to show they are worthwhile to attract members, then so will student associations.
RJS131 a lot of collective bodies have rules for their members, why even if you want to walk into a shopping centre they have rules about what you can or cant do. if you dont like it , choose another place to shop, …oops they have the same sort of rules.
Same for students …. choose distance learning ?
Even ACT has rules , I wonder why ?
The point was that the ACT party has had published totally erroneous figures to justify the stalling of an unpopular Bill. And in a totally legal form used by all parties forever.
To argue that it shouldn’t be compulsory is another story. A better likening would be should we have to register our vehicles? Why not have choice rather than everyone paying for the common good?
By the way Part 2 of Phil doesn’t link for me.
When I tried to leave VUWSA because I didn’t want to be a part of it this was the email I got back from the president
“Please note that the following applies in order for your application on the grounds of conscientious objection to be considered:
Your application must clearly state the grounds on which you have a conscientious objection and your application will need to demonstrate a deeply held philosophical conviction that compulsory membership infringes on your rights in ways and for purposes that are demonstrably offensive to you;
A definition of ‘conscientious’ applies which includes moral, philosophical and religious grounds, but not dissatisfaction with policies nor dissatisfaction with VUWSA services;
Should you be granted exemption on the above grounds a sum equivalent to the subscription will be paid by VUWSA to a charity endorsed by the Executive. These are as follows:
Rape Crisis
The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA)
Women’s Refuge
The VUWSA Foodbank
Wellington City Mission
Wellington Life-Flight Charitable Trust
Wellington People’s Centre”
While we are told that “opting out is easy” it’s not, there is a high bar set for conscientious objection, and even if you pass that bar you still don’t get your money back, and are forced to give it to a charity that you have little say over.
Also worth noting, they do not advertise that people can opt out – anywhere – when I worked at the university enrolment office we were told to tell people there was no way to get out of paying their membership fee.
That’s what happens at ground zero, student’s don’t know they can opt out, struggle to if they want to opt out, and have a financial disincentive to opt out.
Spud – they are still there. It is just that they cannot FORCE you to join.
The new bill gives you the choice to join or not.
It is sad to see labour so against freedom of choice.
How many members days have been ‘postponed’ due to the Nat/Act/Maori Government’s overuse of urgency? But taking personal responsibility was never the Act party’s strongpoint.
If the Nats pass this bill – its a broken promise.
Ummm… This is an private members bill from the ACT party not one from the National led government.
Regardless of that I don’t believe the National party went in to the last election with a cast iron guarrantee that it wouldn’t change the law around compulsory Student Union membership.
Do you have any evidence for this?
@Joe – you got it about members’ days cancelled. If Heather Roy wants to whine at someone, she should have a go at the National Party.
The question is does the Labour party believe in the democratic process or would it prefer to exploit a loop hole to deny a legitimate bill the chance to be debated and voted on in the house?
Why does ACT hate education ?
Is their ideas for NZ’s future consist of allowing students not to pay Students Association fees, which the University or Polytech will turn around and make compulsory anyway for using student facilities.
Opportunity cost is a difficult concept, but you’d think a libertarian party like ACT would understand that not having parliament passing laws was a benefit to the taxpayer, not a cost.
@Gosman : “The question is does the Labour party believe in the democratic process or would it prefer to exploit a loop hole to deny a legitimate bill the chance to be debated and voted on in the house?” Yep, of course we believe in the democratic process, which includes the right of opposition to use parliamentary process to delay legislation we disagree with. Or are you really saying that the opposition should roll over and have its tummy tickled? If that is the case, why bother with a democracy?
I don’t think students should be given the right to choose ,, they should be forced to join
@Darien Fenton: How common is it for any political party to delay the passing of a bill for an entire year.
@Swampy – you mean how common is it for any political party to stop any of it’s or other MP’s members bills from being drawn for an entire year.
@Darien – compulsory unionism is a thing of the past. Move on with life. Let other MPs have their Bills drawn
Darien you don’t need to roll over..just accept that 65 beats 55. While my student union did some good for me (like a doctor) there were heaps of rorts.. my mates were like ‘bro dream of a new club and we’ll get free Auck to Dunners return for Easter tourney’. So in the end I felt ripped off and a user pays doctor would have been cheaper. Compulsory unionism meant that those who could be bothered with student union politics had big coffers for pet projects… and you can see where that leads. Aren’t some unions and student unions trying to find missing money?
Oliver, student unions are a body that actually do a lot of good work, from advocating for improved student services, providing support to their peers in times of crisis and providing facilities and services.
In a similar way you benefit from the changes in employment law, health and safety and working conditions that were won by trade unions.
If you make this ‘optional’ in these hard times students will opt out, student unions will become unsustainable and higher education standards will be negatively harmed.
@Ian – Should the PPTA be made compulsory? should the PSA be made compulsory? should the EMPU be made compulsory? – perhaps the Hobbit haters at Actors Equity? should they be made compulsory?
Or, does choice and accountability mean that unions need to effectively advocate on behalf of those they represent in order to attract membership?
The only reason why one would be worried about an exodus from student unions, is a recognition that they are ineffective organisations that do not represent their members well.
I did not see $500 worth of benefit of being a member of VUWSA, so tried to leave, but wasn’t was not allowed to; how can that be fair?
the daft arguments in favour of opting out remind me of the idiots who say they don’t want to pay rates cos they don’t use the park or the library (or whatever). The money goes to provide services that will have to be provided by someone – if the student union doesn’t do it, the college (ie the taxpayer) will have to.
And as for the fact that some rorts have ocurred – on that basis no organisations at all would exist as at some time some company/school/charity/you name it has misappropriated money. Until human beings are perfect all we can do is minimise risk.
Just like ACT I am going to chose what I want to pay for. I am taking a leaf from their farmer members and am not going to bother much with income tax and while I am at it I might as well claim back all my GST on even my personal items. I don’t have to worry about fuel tax as ALL my driving is on the farm so no sorry not gonna pay that either. If my kids are at uni they dont need no student union to look after them. I keep plenty of dosh back from the taxman so I will be able to help them out. I must admit I hate all those handouts all the beneficiaries get from all my taxes that I manage to evade, but the system allows me to do it. It means that there are bugger all subsidies when for us when ever it doesn’t rain for a week, or whenever it does for that matter. Same system means I can pocket the lot and not even worry about capital gains tax when I cash up later on either. I own this country and will rape it’s soul out as I am the backbone of this country, despite not giving anything back. Gosh, I am starting to sound like an anarchist with all my calls for freedom of choice.
The objection I have with this tactic is that you are stopping other members’ bills from being debated at the expense of your own personal philosophy, regardless of whether those bills have anything to do with VSM or not.
Secondly, it’s all very well and good for you to say “Don’t go to an institution that has CSU if you don’t like it” but there is one university where Student Union Membership isn’t compulsory, and that’s Auckland.
Ian, you may be right about gains made by unions in the labour movement, but entire economies have been built on slavery, which certainly isn’t relevant or acceptable. If the unions provide a service that people can see and appreciate, they will join, just like they have at Auckland.
You may be entitled to use this process to slow down a bill you don’t like, but that doesn’t make it the mature way to handle things. If anything, this Bill being passed would give you campaign ammunition, but you’re just loading other peoples’ cannons for them.
Yes there’s the slight problem of the law Brendon but perhaps you shouldn’t worry about that and just pretend “certain people” are allowed to break that with complete impunity all the time in this country.
But on the whole, good spotting Brendon. Well done. Personally, I see this all the time, everyday, everywhere. Good on you for bringing it to the attention of the authoriti’s. That takes real guts.
Dorothy – unions are not councils, and are not government it’s not a taxpayer/ratepayer situation. Ratepayers and taxpayers have hundreds of pages of legislation and rules governing the spending and appropriations student associations can spend on whatever they want with a million dollars and a mandate of 2.6% of the people they “represent”.
Regardless of that I don’t want VUWSA to represent me, I don’t agree with having them as an association, but when I tried to leave, I wasn’t allowed to, and there was no way to get the $500 that I paid back from them.
You would have to be quite stupid to confuse it with red herrings like councils and governments, it’s a union, and people should be allowed to decide whether they want to belong or not. – I didn’t have that opportunity when I tried.
@swampy, back to fight another vsm thread I see!
I’ll be back after I get some coffee 
Offensive deleted. Warning. Ban next time. Trevor.