Auckland Grammar School has refused to implement NCEA.
Many primary schools have refused to implement National Standards.
On the Auckland Grammar issue Education Minister Anne Tolley declined to be interviewed, instead releasing a written statement that she had full confidence in the NCEA qualification.
On the primary schools that refused to implement National Standards Anne Tolley had plenty to say such as, the opposition is driven by unions, teachers and principals afraid of accountability, afraid to change, if these schools break the law she has the ultimate power to replace Boards of Trustees with a commissioner, Principals are manipulating Boards of Trustees, etc.
Auckland Grammar Principal John Morris said, “We are confident the change is in the best interests of all our boys”.
Rebel primary school principals say their refusal to implement National Standards is in the best interests of their pupils.
Putting aside the NCEA v Cambridge let’s focus on the behaviour of the Minister.
If Anne Tolley is to display any measure of consistency in her approach she will now;
- Persecute the principal and teachers of AGS through the media
- Threaten to sack the Board of Trustees and replace them with a commissioner.
- Mount a campaign to inform parents of AGS that NCEA is the best system.
If Auckland Grammar School is allowed to bend the rules without consequence, primary schools who don’t want to implement National Standards should be afforded the same the same courtesy.
Auckland Grammar School has refused to implement NCEA.
Many primary schools have refused to implement National Standards.
On the Auckland Grammar issue Education Minister Anne Tolley declined to be interviewed, instead releasing a written statement that she had full confidence in the NCEA qualification.
On the primary schools that refused to implement National Standards Anne Tolley had plenty to say such as, the opposition is driven by unions, teachers and principals afraid of accountabilty, afraid to change, if these schools break the law she has the ultimate power to replace Boards of Trustees with a comissioner.
Auckland Grammar Principal John Morris said, “We are confident the change is in the best interests of all our boys”.
Rebel primary school principals say their refusal to implement National Standards is in the best interests of their pupils.
Putting aside the NCEA v Cambridge debate or the National Standards debate, why is Anne Tolley’s response so inconsistent?
If she is to display any measure of consistency in her approach she will now;
- Persecute the principal and teachers of AGS through the media
- Threaten to sack the Board of Trustees and replace them with a comissioner.
- Mount a campaign to inform parents of AGS that NCEA is the best system.
If Auckland Grammar School is allowed to bend the rules without consequence, primary schools who don’t want to implement National Standards should be allowed the same the same courtesy.
Is education in this country still stuck in the 18th century with its English public school methods? Or are we going to start equipping our kids for the 21st century?
What is this obsession with the English and their learning systems?
Our schooling/educational results usually come out better than the UK.
I went to school last century and guess what – I’m equipped for the 21st century. So what’s the problem you are pointing to exactly?
Further to the above. Topcat you will see that the NZ system handily beats the UK in the reading scale, math scale and science scale in the 2009 OECD survey.
http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf
Not only that, but the NZ educational results rank as above the OECD average across the board.
Now remind me exactly what your problem with our educational system is – apart from calling it 18th century, which is of course a nonsense.
IF the boys arent doing so well at NCEA or it doesnt work for them, perhaps they need to learn how to excel at things they dont like doing? I mean at least with NCEA an employer gets an idea of who has the ability or tenacity to work across a whole year rather than showing for mucks around for the year apart from a week cramming before exams a couple of times a year.
KiaOra, Talofa and Salaam-I don’t think National has changed since the last time I worked for them (as a Ministry official). The National Standards was Nationals plea to go back to the basics BUT schools had already been doing this and to assume not was a slap in the face for teachers..The N.S focus was on teachers to consult their parents/communities..yes schools had been doing this…but to assume not was another slap on the face…and when schools don’t do their jobs the tories would send in the commissioner…I know some schools that did not deserve this!!.a cheap shot to get what they wanted instead on letting schools do it for themselves and even better consulting schools rather then dictating what they should be doing. I admit there are some schools who are not pulling their weight but hey Anne Tolley I suggest you sit down with Auckland Grammar over a cuppa or 2.
CV
Why is it that boys so underperform girls at NCEA?
How well do you think an examination system designed in the UK based upon 100 year old learning principles as espousd by Auckland Grammar will accurately measure achievement in NZ in 2010?
How well do you think the educational system is accepting of new teaching techniques?
Its not all about sit, learn and regurgitate anymore.
Just clarifying (this is probably a stupid question) – but it IS compulsory to offer NCEA in schools?
I agree with tracey in terms of it showing who works consistently over the year – for me personally, having just finished Level 3, I definitely wouldn’t have ended up with the results I did without the internals throughout the year – which I’m pretty strong with. Without them I don’t think my final overall qualification would have reflected the effort I put in, or what I’m capable of achieving. I won’t deny that there are some things about it that don’t work – but overall it’s not too bad a system I guess. And topcat – I’d like to think I’m equipped for the 21st century now (disregarding the fact that I’m not hugely au fait with technology!
)
My partner suggested we could return to the old University Accredited type system where you wouldget NCEA type “marks” and if you got certain number you got University Entrance. If you didnt reach UE levels you still had your NCEA Levels.
IF you want to go to University, but dont get it through the year you sit an end of year National exam. If you dont want to go to university you dont have to sit the final exam. Type of thing.
I suspect Topcat was referring to the exams AGS have switched to, the Cambridge exams, administered by the University of Cambridge in England. Assuming that English exams must be better than New Zealand ones is pretty last-century, you’ve got to admit.
It’s not all about fascination with the British system, some schools offer International Baccalaureate (sp?) which is not British. What it’s about is that Cambridge and IB are recognized in many countries as uni entrance qualification and for other purposes, while NCEA is not and I understand the parents who take into account that their kids may want to study or live overseas in the future because in today’s world that’s a very realistic scenario. I have no idea if NCEA is compulsory, if it is the school should be made to offer it and they can do anything else they want extra if they manage, but people who create these qualification systems should be aware that international recognition of a qualification becomes more and more important and work on this. Fighting parents who want what they think is best for their kids is hard.
Anne Tolley is of vourse completely accurate when she says the opposition is driven by unions, teachers and principals afraid of accountability, afraid to change. Schools have admitted as much. The Unions have said theu would implement National Standards if the imformation is not published or made available under the OIA. The unions are out to protect the useless teachers who would be shown up.
The protagionists in the debate have had a long history in the Teacher Union movement and the NZEI.
Parents overwhelmingly want National Standards fully implemented, the the Government has a mandate for the policy.
The Unions (Lapdog of the Labour party – or is that the other way around) are using this policy for political advantage. (Probably another reason whyLabour continue to poll so low)
Congrats Ella I also just did my lvl 3.
Personally I think NCEA is too easy, I got offers for the 2 auckland uni courses I applied for (arts+commerce) bcoz of my marks and passed most things with plenty of merits when I was literally late every single day of the year (sometimes up to 2/3 hrs late) and wagged 1 out of 5 lessons at least, never did homework except for some studying in the last few weeks before the exam.
The NCEA is also very ironic. This year I studied very hard for one of the economics papers and thought I would get excellence for it but I failed it and did well in the rest which I studied less for. And there was this history paper that I didn’t study for at all and half 4ssed it on the day and I got excellence. Plenty of fellow students (at my school at least) have simular stories to tell.
But overall I like the NCEA because it’s nice that we have our own system and we got rated #1 on the legatum prosperity index for education so we must be doing something right. High school is kinda stupid but we have to be doing something while we grow up and mature and learn self discipline so we are ready for the workforce you know.
Oh yeah and there was this poor guy in my economics class who got full excellences in the practice exams and full achieved in the final exam, when he would have done even more study since the practices. There is something very, very wrong with that outcome.
“Anne Tolley is of vourse completely accurate when she says the opposition is driven by unions, teachers and principals afraid of accountability, afraid to change…”
Ok M, I will bite (although I am old enough to know better – but obviously not wise enough yet!) – would you please desist with your constant teacher bashing. Its getting tired and it always appears as though you have failed to grasp the fundamental basic elements of the merits of our ed system. Your comments about being afraid to change etc are ludicrous. Accountability exists in plenty within the system and its known around the world how good our system is – why the right want to keep breaking it is beyond me. I suspect you are beating around the performance pay bush?? If so, please do enlighten me on how you propose this ‘accountability’ will work? I have asked before but to date there is not ONE rightwinger who can devise an appropriate system – but today I may be surprised?
As for Trolley and her two faced politics – no surprises there. Of course she has not got the courage to persecute the ‘posh’ school – too many ‘rich’ mummys and daddys who would be upset and stop funding (or is that buying off) the Nats – which would in term upset smile and wave boy. She is a disgrace.
I did ncea when it was in its infancy and found it ok.
I definitely like internal assessment, as at university there is internal work, and solely focussing on end of year exams is not the best approach for todays world/the tertiary environment. Such an approach as stated by a previous poster can encourage one to coast through the year and cram for a few weeks, not exactly how the real world is.
There are though downsides to ncea, I dislike the grading system, no real incentive (other than doing better for oneself, which for some isn’t an overly high priority when you’re at school) to get merits/excellences as you get the same number of credits regardless. I would like to see a system where, say you get 4 credits for excellence, 3 for merit and 2 for achieved.
Andrew, if one is trying to enter university from 2011 onwards, the merits and excellences count. Unis are now working on a points system, which give you a certain amount of points per NCEA grade. If you don’t have the points, you only allowed in to uni if there is enough room.
Also re: is NCEA compulsory question. It certainly isn’t in private schools or home-schooling. I do not know if it is or not in public schools.
Paul – Monty knows that the only job in NZ where the employee spends their own money to do their job better is teaching which hardly makes them blood suckers. I see M, that you chose to completely ignore the question of whether Auckland Grammar ought to be able flout the law something you feel very strongly about when done in relation to NS.
Anyone else see the irony of an article about education standards and quality with this headline
“Top school’s revolt against NCEA”
Auckland Grammar aims for excellence and offers Cambridge exams (as well as the option of NCEA for the low achievers).
National Standards aims for excellence in primary schools by being the thermometer that tells parents there is a problem rather than be patronisingly told that their child is ” sort of ok, like eh.”
National standards may allow some children destined for educational abandonment to one day go to Auckland grammar and sit Cambridge exams.
I was watching this lecture on education reform from Sir Ken Robinson a week or so ago and it made some very good points. If you have 12 minutes, I’d encourage you to check it out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U
Lol Andrew funny you should say that because a system exactly like that exists in several universities in NZ. They have a rank system where 1 achieved credit gives 2 rank points, merit credits give 3 points each and excellence credits 4, and each course has a certain rank point requirement (ranging from 145ish to 280ish). This is just for level 3 however and there is still absolutely no incentive to get higher than achieved at levels 1 and 2.
And yes the internal system is a very good thing. Less end of year stress and more like real life.
If primary school teachers were proposing to use a higher standard with success and failure judged than what they are prescribed then I’m sure Tolley wouldn’t have an issue. They are not.
What Grammar is doing here is introducing the option to parents of a more internationally recognized measure of excellence and telling those students who cant hack it really to go find another school that uses another method. Nothing wrong with that. I doubt many parents will do this given the lengths they go to in order to get their kid into Grammar.
There is a strong renaissance like demand for numerical testing with things like grades, rankings and passes and FAILs. Oh and heaven help it…..exams.
Does it concern any supporters of NS that it has been withdrawn from the UK?
I’m sorry Kate if they want to refuse students who cant hack it they are effectively saying if teaching gets hard we need to change the system that suits our students not teach our students to adapt.
At present NCEA is required to be offered in school, none of the people agreeing with AG’s stance are taking them to task for openly proposing to flout the rules and teaching their students that if you dont like a law ignore it, the same people who rail against those refusing to implement NS. Funny aye?
NCEA is like the anti nuclear debate. Those who cannot bear change and assume the way it was for them is best for everyone, use fear, like our economy will collapse if we dont let the US bring nuclear ships. The sky didnt fall. There is actually more evidence that NS doesnt work than it does, hence other nations who used it are withdrawing it.
John Graham last 12 months at a decile 1-3 school and then left to open a private school. Education is not a one size fits all and schools need to offer diversity within their own environment. It’s part of teaching. Getting students regurgitating facts and figures is hardly a great foundation for the world we live in.
We have five under 20s working for us that came through NCEA from shop floor to “junior” Management not having the Cambridge exam has not hurt them or prevented us recognising what we need in certain positions. ALL are proving to be hard workers, great work ethic. 3 have Degrees from technical Institutes.
It appears there remains in NZ a strong tendancy in certain quarters, including AG and Universities, to hang onto outdated ideas of intellectual snobbery. Of course they dont call it that and come up with other ways to say the same thing.
CK, what makes you think there are no exams under NCEA? Every child I know doing NCEA sits exams. Children also know who is brighter than another, whether you give them an A or a pass, or a fail.
An alternative explanation for the preference of private and special character schools for the International Baccalaureate and Cambridge exams over NCEA is that such schools, whose agenda is to reproduce the ruling class and maintain its position of privilege, choose these different assessment systems not because they are necessarily better but because they are different. It is a way of maintaining a distinctive and superior identity.
Teacher objections to National Standards have nothing to do with a rejection of excellence in teaching but reflect a genuine concern that “failing” children at an early age is unfair and counter productive.
“National Standards aims for excellence in primary schools by being the thermometer that tells parents there is a problem rather than be patronisingly told that their child is ” sort of ok, like eh.””
@Fv – you have got to be kidding right? Again, here I am taking the bait. There has been so much written about tolleys folly that there is really no need to go and rehash the same ground – suffice to say, my advice is look at the link above – sir Ken Robinson is well known. I can not think of one credible (happy to stand corrected) internationally recognized educator – here or offshore – who can categorically state that nat stds are a good thing. Its a myth – and for the sake of your children and the kids in our country – wake up.
Well said Jen.
Please return and say these things again and again.You never know, it might eventually filter through to Fisiani’s no personal comments. Clare
@ Dylan – Did you go for Arts or Commerce? Might see you around Auckland Uni, it’s where I’m going
Yeah, what happened to your friend in economics has happened to me, that’s one of the things that really pisses me off about NCEA. I do tonnes of work and end up with grades at the end of the year that doesn’t reflect it, someone sitting next to me coasts the whole year and gets better grades. ‘Tis stupid!
@ tracey – Yeah, I noticed that title too, it made me laugh
Apologies Clare
When I was at school back in the dark ages, and went to the sister school of Auck Grammar, I was told by one of my senior teachers that Grammar had one of the highest per capita failure rates of 1st year uni students. The reason given to me was the boys were chased to get work done, whereas as soon as you get to uni, it’s self directed.
As for people who want to teacher bash – get over it. There MAY be a few bad apples but the vast majority are wonderful advocates for our kids. I heard about a conversation between a teacher and a non-teacher at a bbq. The non-teacher, when hearing what the teacher did said ‘gee your lucky, all those holidays, cushy number’. The teacher turned around and said ‘why don’t you go teaching?’, and the non-teacher replied ‘ahhh no I couldn’t handle all those kids’.
I am not a teacher but I do have friends that are and I have deduced from them, that teaching is not just a job, but it is a calling and one that requires passion. They are dedicated. They have a significant influence on our kids, so we should listen to them.
I understood and the politicians might correct me, but NCEA had to be offered in a school. I understand some kids at Grammar can participate but I imagine pressure would come to bear from them to choose Cambridge and having some knowledge of Grammar, the kids that choose NCEA would be made to feel second class. I’ve heard threats Mrs Tolley has made to dissenting BOTs and principals – I think she should do the same to Grammar.
Otherwise, this is NZ. If Grammar wants to import an overseas qualification well that’s fine but then should the taxpayer be funding it? Schools that offer the IB or Cambridge system in a few cases and predominantly offer NCEA fine, but Grammar is rejecting the NZ system in almost it’s entirety, so then let Cambridge fund them.
Tracey, a large part of NCEA is internally assessed. This appears one of the main reasons Grammar is switching to Cambridge.
@Kate if the internal assessment is robust enough there should be no problem.
I thought that the reason was that they had been doing so badly at scholarship and didn’t like the league tables.
And prickly one good schools in NZ use one of three world leading assessment systems. All norm referenced and with much deeper information than her standards. All she had to do was to require schools to use one of the systems and report on that basis to parents.
And why do people pretend that these exams have anything to do with Cambridge University. They don’t.
As I understand it all State schools are obliged to provide NCEA assessments. Mr Morris, by refusing to offer NCEA, is, I presume, in violation of his employment contract with the State and therefore should be disciplined by the Minister of Education and, probably, threatened to have his employment terminated.
However, I suspect, that Mr Morris’ campaign against NCEA has the support of the Minister as his campaigning has often been echoed by those in the present NACT government who would deny that the NZ education system is among the world leaders.
I agree, if Tolley was to be consistent, she would be descending on ABG and Mr Morris like the proverbial ton of bricks and hauling him to heel as she has done with the Primary Principals (but then those Principals are represented by the NZEI and, i suspect, Mr Morris is a non union member which makes his violation of his responsibility as a Principal of a State school acceptable?).
“What it’s about is that Cambridge and IB are recognized in many countries as uni entrance qualification and for other purposes, while NCEA is not….”
Melusina -of course NCEA is recognised as uni entrance qualification – just ring Sussex , Oxford or Cambridge Universities in England , as I did for my son in 2006. They told me the level he was required to attain in each appropriate subject at at NCEA level 3 and he would then be considered for entry. They are similar to the O and A levels in Britain and are very robust. I think from what the principal of Auckland Grammar was saying- he thought his pupils did better under an exam only system. I think he and his staff probably prefer this system as it makes life a lot easier for them. Continual assessment is far more work for teachers (and students on the whole) but is more robust and telling in its outcomes; plus the students will be more grounded in their subjects than a one off (international) ‘result by exam’ only system. Education is more than ‘examination outcomes’, which is why top global educators will now employ systems similar to our really quite excellent NCEA system. P.S.I was educated in Britain and went through the O and A level ‘examination only’ system as it was then. I took London University papers at a really “top” British school. My friends went to other “top ” British schools and sat combined Oxford and Cambridge papers some friends took Cambridge(alone) papers. London and Oxford and Cambridge papers were the “hardest”- Cambridge(alone)were always considered less hard (although things could have changed since those far off days). Good job the Cambridge exam being spoken of by Auckland Grammar is nothing to do with Cambridge University ?!
@Ella Not really sure, I need to talk to someone at the uni about what careers can come from each course. You have to be doing something practical these days you know, uni costs alot of money whereas it used to be free and lots of people used to go to do what they enjoyed but that’s a luxury we don’t really have anymore. All that cost/effort has to end with good well paid career opportunities or it’s just not worth it. In the end it’s probably better that way though.
Atm I’m thinking Arts with an economics major with some politics/sociology/nz history/couple of commerce courses. Wbu? Unlikely to see each other if we aren’t doing the same courses haha
Plus I might keep working for a year/half year. Need to have some money saved up unless you have a rich family whos gonna carry you.
@ sica
I do not know about Cambridge, but IB is recognized in lots of continental Europe and Asia, and something that is recognized is preferable to a qualification that would require translating all the school records (and then the admission people have to sit and think how it compares to other qualifications while you wait and have no idea if you’ll be accepted or not). I would like for all kids and their parents to be able to choose what qualification they want to get, and to make the well-known ones internationally available to more students, so that you don’t have to be in a private or high-decile school to have a chance to get them (and they are not extra-difficult academically).
Like England (and the rest of the English-speaking world) is all “overseas” there is?
Sorry Kate, when you wrote this “Oh and heaven help it…..exams.” I took it to me you thought NCEA had no exams.
@ Mallard “And why do people pretend that these exams have anything to do with Cambridge University. They don’t.”
ummm from there website “University of Cambridge International Examinations (CIE) is the world’s largest provider of international qualifications for 14–19 year olds. We are part of the University of Cambridge and a not-for-profit organisation.”
so are you completley lacking understanding or are they pretending also?
@ Dylan – I’m planning on majoring in English and Political Studies. Doing some history and philosophy papers too. Considering becoming a teacher after Uni. Are you going to the Courses Day on Feb 2? That would probably help with some of your questions
I think you should be scared about the posturing of Cambridge for smart students and NCEA for dumb kids and a two tiered education system by comments like
but the school could allow “some exceptions” with weaker students to have a “backup” plan and allow them to sit NCEA maths and English.
@Ella cool might see you in some classes then, and maybe the labour club too haha
@ Dylan – Yeah, most probably!
@ ivorytowerkiwi – Good point, I noticed that and was a little annoyed by those comments myself
My son sat Cambridge and enjoyed the courses and style of learning very much. His certificates carry the University of Cambridge crest and are signed by the Cambridge Vice-Chancellor which makes me think they have very strong connections to the University.
Notice how cunning she is with no interviews buts heres a written statement.
This cannot be acceptable to the media.
I’m sure AGS would allow student who ask to enter for the NCEA papers. Would this fulfill their obligation under the Education Act even if they do not actively offer classes and tuition for NCEA courses?
Right on Kelvin! No, Anne Tolley won’t take on Auckland Grammar – neither will the Secretary, the Ministry, the ERO or NZQA!!
John Morris is demonstration without shadow of a doubt who is supreme in his state school.
There are students at Auckland who are as thick as two short planks. Deferring examinations till end of year for this low riders will do them no favours.
Meanwhile Anne Tolley suggests parents phone the school to express concerns they may have. Do they have more clout at Auckland Grammar that she does? I don’t think so – I think the parents will be as powerless as Tolley and her hierarchy are!