The Standard’s piece earlier in the week has got me thinking on crime. The Nact government has failed to impact on trends:-
Crime Rate
Number of recorded crimes in year to July 2008: 426,690
Number unresolved: 226,301
Number of recorded crimes in year to July 2010: 441,960
Number unresolved: 229,399So, not only more crimes (1.4% per capita) but more unsolved too. If Treasury’s optimistic outlook for lower unemployment turns out to be correct, we might expect crime to drop a little next year. But it won’t be due to anything the government has done.
Prisons
Number of people on prison sentence, Sept 2008: 6,231
Number of people on prison sentence, Sept 2010: 6,967Locking more people up isn’t solving the problem
Law and order
Number of new police promised by Judith Collins and John Key: 600
Number delivered, according Deputy Police Commissioner Viv Rickard: 30Number of new offences created by National government: more than we could count
Number of cars crushed thanks to Crusher Collins: zero
The danger is that in election year we all get caught up in a “lock them up” bidding war which at one level meets demand but at another just adds another generation to the problem. And building prisons is very very expensive. Money that otherwise be able to to be used for improving health or education or even for a tax system that had lower real marginal rates for middle income kiwi families.
But to do so requires at least a two party agreement. I wonder if Simon Power is up to it.
“But to do so requires at least a two party agreement. I wonder if Simon Power is up to it.”
Great opener to win friends and influence people, Trevor!
Is it fair to assume that might Simon Power might wonder the same about you? And then perhaps with a little humility get down to that more constructive ‘two party’ dialogue you recommend?
And how many of these ‘criminals’ are the highly dangerous pot smokers?
I mean really the resources the police put into this little weed (and it is a weed) is amazing moillions and millions of dollars. now I am not going to get into an Alcohol vs Pot argument here, but i really would be interested in the breakdown of some of these numbers and also what the prison ratio is as well. We are putting more and more of our people in to jail, the question is i suppose how many of them are violent habitual ( you know the hardend crim ) and how many are in for the so called ‘silly’ charge?? ie growing pot etc??
It’s just a thought that if you want to save money the 215 or so grand a year WE pay to keep a ‘minor crim’ in jail could probably be better spent elsewhere we need to get smarter and start looking overseas for some answers ?
The last lot had a fairly good stab at setting up effective inerventions, funding youth community and resourcing the fight against drugs. And child poverty rose on their watch. Go Figure. And let us not forget that this harvest of prisoners is a direct consequence of their stewardship of what I call a ‘lost’ generation. They were children and young adults uner that regime. Now are fully grown crims. Obviously the answer is not to lock people up for the smallest misdemenour, but frankly consigning people in particular Maori and PU to the scrap-heap was never a problem for the last 12 years, so why is it all of a sudden a big issue? And when you talk about stupid unnecessary laws you don’t have to look much further than the pointless s.69 do you?? As you can imagine (for one who has worked in prisons) it is galling to see peoples’ lives reduced to a tit-for-tat. Root and branch reform is required, not only at the early intervention stages and I mean right back at Plunkett (which Labour actively under-mined) through to training for CYFS, school, Probation and the Parole system.
So are you saying that if we stop locking up criminals, crime will drop? By that reckoning if we stop giving out benefits we can eliminate poverty!
Once someone commited a violent crime, it is too late and I say lock them up. But prevention should start with children and I believe sometimes this would mean removing children from their environment into one where they have better role models. I truly do not understand why some dysfunctional families are allowed to keep their children and raise them to be future crims.
Jail sentences shouldn’t be given out as punishment. People should only be sent to prison if they need to be removed from society because of the risk they pose to others.
Otherwise, there are many other approaches that can be taken.
I remember that Phil Goff went on an overseas pilgrimage a few years back looking for a more positive approach to law and order and the role (roll?) of prisons. Hurray I thought. A shift to Restorative justice and prevention I thought but we seemed to get caught up in the Punitive competition instead. (Mine’s bigger than yours!)
In the 7th Century Ireland had a great Restorative justice system but sadly the Roman Catholic Church steadily eroded that into a punitive system that is still part of our belief today.
I wonder who should initiate a cross-party approach?
Unsolved crimes? Isn’t that down to the cops?
yes unsolved crimes are the responsibility of the police but most crimes that are solved are down to the public providing info – forget the phoney scenarios of detective novels and films.
No-one is saying “if we stop locking up criminals, crime will drop” and you’d have to be pretty stupid to read the post that way. The point is, the stats prove that locking people up is not deterring crime. The ultimate proof is the US where armed cops, v long sentences etc etc (all the right’s solutions) have led to a society where people are a lot less safe than in NZ.
PS why is Collins not being crucified over her broken promises on police numbers?
Trevor – did you see the TV7 Court Report interview with Judge Carolyn Henwood on Thursday (and probably on TVNZ ON demand)? Such sensible ideas about youth justice. Said about 40% of inmates have been in state care at some point in their lives, and how that Te Hurihanga programme was just starting to work when the Govt closed it. How great the family group conference model is, but the kids are often let down by adults who don’t follow through. She’s now doing restorative stuff that goes back several years.
There are some sensible people out there, such as Gabrielle Maxwell, who know lots about crime and (particularly restorative) justice, and how to start addressing the underlying issues.
Don’t need to re-invent the wheel, just implement some of the well-evaluated ideas out there.
The number of prison inmates with mental health issues is huge. But what happened to the institutions that used to deal with these people? Closed. What options do the courts have to help these people? Bugger all. What training do the cops and prison staff get to help them deal with mentally sick people? Diddly squat.
Perhaps Trevor would be good enough to post the stats for 1999 so we could compare and see how well things went under the fifth Labour government.
Redistribution the Key
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Issues/The-Economy/2011/01/04/Income-Redistribution-The-Key-To-Economic-Growth.aspx
The trumpeted Tory crackdown on crime, will not cut crime because it refuses to deal with the cause.
The one thing single glaring causative factor related to the growth in crime in society, is the parallel rise in inequality in society.
Equality society’s soul food:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/02/opinion/02kristof.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212
(you could almost say that crime is a sort of instinctive primitive redistribution.)
Of course being Tories the Nacts will never do anything to reduce this causative factor, in fact the opposite. As the first link above shows, the growth in equality also leads to economic breakdown, which is also a breeding ground for crime.
The tory approach to crime is to make society more repressive, this doesn’t decrease crime, as much as it makes criminals more desperate, (and therefore dangerous). The resulting increasingly vicious criminal outrages, lead to more calls for further repression and harsher sentences, more police, more prisons. Which leads to even more desperate crimes, which leads to calls for even more police and even harsher sentences and even more prisons.
In the end it is hard to tell your democracy apart from a police state.
So what sort of society does Judith Collins envisage for NZ?
Will more of our rich folk be living in gated communities, their privilege protected by security guards and a vastly inflated repressive state apparatus. Their children growing up in exspensive private schools that strongly resemble the gated communities they come from?
Alongside this glaring inequality, increased numbers of prisons, which no matter how many more we build, still manage to be overcrowded, with an inmate population way over represented from the minorities, who suffer the double whammy of being at the bottom of this gross pyramid, but also as handy scapegoats for our society’s failure to deal with crime.
Agreed, Hilary, Dorothy, Ianmac. We have the research and the people with the ideas and the expertise, other countries have the experience, we know what we’re doing now isn’t working and we know what might work, both longterm and shortterm. What we don’t have is the buy-in of the general public. The public is still afraid of shadows, still wanting revenge, still buying the bs sold them by the SST and whoever their sponsors are – Private Prison Corps, perhaps?
I watched The Wire and saw NZ Tomorrow. This mad ‘War on Drugs’ is turning our Police into soldiers, our neighbourhoods into conflict zones – Us v. Them; where everyone, everyone else, is The Enemy.
And now I will set my self up for a flaming.
The Easiest way to cut the number of people in jails and take the power out of the gangs and to save millions and millions of dollars and make even more millions is
Yes Legalise Marijuana it’s so simple but the wowsers and old school politicians you know the ones the ‘that looks like too much fun lets ban it’ yes the ones who have probably been paid off by tobacco and alcohol companies.
But you would have to make it plain that the legalisation is not going to allow people to get old convictions overturned but maybe records could be expunged of said details.
But look at the positive
1 you empty the Jails of the minor non violent type that maybe got caught growing a little pot and save a fortune per year per person. And make sure there is always enough room for the dodgy type.
2: you break the power of the gangs and allow the police to focus on the more dangerous drugs.
3: taxes you will need something to replace that what is slowly disappearing the tobacco as most people have or are giving it away, So put a tax and age limit on marijuana make it legal for someone to grow their own ( you can grow Tobacco if you want to).
There is a list of the most dangerous drugs in the world and it is an eye opener. and here it is.
http://drbenkim.com/ten-most-dangerous-drugs.html
or here
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17760130/ns/health-addictions/
and here
http://blog.thegooddrugsguide.com/2311/the-6-most-addictive-substances-on-earth/
pot is on the list but it’s below alcohol, nicotine, and yes Caffeine.
Okay there’s my thought I now await the inevitable flaming along the usual lines, pot is evil yada yada oh and I am not a teen i am in my middle age.
Arandar says:
The public is still afraid of shadows, still wanting revenge, still buying the bs sold them by the SST and whoever their sponsors are – Private Prison Corps, perhaps?
Of course people want revenge, Christ if some guy raped my mother I would have his nuts nailed to the nearest tree.
Turn the other cheek, I don’t think so.
Brett. Every time the question comes up, people like you quote extremes. Probably every commentator would agree that the extremes should be dealt with severely. And they are dealt with severely now. Got that out of the way? Try addressing the issue.
But of the 9,000 in prison only a handful would fit the extreme model. The other 8,000 are the ones that we are concerned about. Restorative justice, Prevention, Specialist Therapy, Employment etc.
Takes a hell of a lot of badness to be locked up in NZ.
More stick, less carrot, that’s what’s needed.
@ jenny2
The problem with this theory is that poor people are victims of crime much more often than the rich. NZ Herald wrote about it some time ago with the stats. Robbing the person walking home from the bus stop at night is easier than stopping and robbing someone who drives from one garage to another, and breaking in a few blocks away from where you live is easier than, let’s say, getting on the ferry to Waiheke Island and stealing a helicopter from a lifestyle block.
Also, crime often involves injuring and even killing people, destroying stuff instead of taking it, so calling it “redistribution” is almost offensive.
Great idea Trev but I fear there’s little chance of common sense prevailing on the NACT side of the house.
Given that NZ ranks so highly (2nd) in the league tables of incarceration rates per capita, I very much doubt your assumption.
Much more likely is it that the system is seriously broken, than the people of NZ to be a nation of evil wrongdoers as you claim.
Brilliant knee jerk policy, but remeber, if you treat people like donkeys, you can’t complain if they start acting like asses.
Less guns for all police by stealth, and more social policy and community policing.
@ Al1ens:
Where is this data from? Here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
it says New Zealand is #60. Maybe you meant among a specified group of countries but then it should be mentioned.
Countries do not have the same amount of criminals and criminal activity per capita. You can’t say that if the incarceration rate is higher somewhere, this means that some people go to prison in NZ who would not go to prison if they commited the same crime in another country. There are countries with harsher law and at the same time lower incarceration rates.
Countries which have for a long time excluded a significant group of residents from mainstream society get high crime rates among those excluded. Nothing new here.
This has us 7th in the oecd, just behind mexico http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/government_finance/central_government/nz-in-the-oecd/justice.aspx
The news item where I heard NZ almost topps the crim list is relatively recent. I’ll try and find a link.
Still, a shameful endictment on NZ society.
Getting out on parole, ever, for cold blooded murder is not harsh, to whoever said that. It’s the “parole for everything, everyone get’s a second chance, listen to the ivory tower” mentality that got that poor fellow murdered by Graeme Burton.
However, I do think there is a place for compromise. There’s no reason we can’t keep murderers, rapists, and paedophiles locked up for an appropriate amount of time (forever in the case of murderers, 50 years+ for paedophiles and rapists) and begin a PC programme for lesser crimes such as theft and consumption of low grade drugs such as cannabis. The short term monetary costs of leftist crime policies are obviously high, but if they work as well the academics say they do (heh) maybe the long term savings will be great. On top of that you can keep the more hard-on-crime element of society happy by showing zero tolerance for the worst crimes, as opposed to absolute tolerance we have now (at least in our justice system, society itself is naturally disgusted by the worst crimes).
We’re never going to solve the crime problem until the left and the right stop playing politics and start compromising, because alternating between hard-on-crime to soft-on-crime every time a new government is installed isn’t going to solve anything.
@capital, how exactly were the left soft on crime???
how exactly have the right been hard on crime????
is teaching people the difference from right and wrong so they are able to make correct choices in teh first place soft on crime?
Trevor
Go to Rethinking Crime and Punishment and find the article aorund the 5 party discussion from 2006. S Power makes comments about the need for long term thinking on crime and bi partisanship.
The majority of people in our prisons are not rapists or murderers. Those who focus on this side of “crime” are allowing emotion to override the real view of crime to come through and this is what prevents “us” from taking long term measures to reduce the majority of crime.
When a former governor of a womens prisons speaks out about what works and what doesnt we should listen. But we didnt.
Brett wrote
“Of course people want revenge, Christ if some guy raped my mother I would have his nuts nailed to the nearest tree.
Turn the other cheek, I don’t think so.”
Interesting with the majority of sexual crime remaining unreported and the conversion rate of reported sexual crime to conviction pretty low. This means juries still tend towards “he” in the :”he said she said” world of sexual crimes.
By definition there are almost never witnesses to as sexual crime.
If we REALLY had Brett’s attitude the above would not be true.
@brett…. so when a person can be locked up for possessing a small amount of shade leaf, would you call that “a hell of a lot of badness”? consider that that person has never been convicted of any violent crime, and has only ever been convicted of growing small numbers of plants previously(less than five), and has demonstrated a social awareness regarding his responsibilities to society. do you think that person should do jail time simply because he dislikes the effects of alcohol, and despises the laws that allow gangs of affluent businessmen to make obscene profits prohibition, and is prepared to state that in court… is honesty really something that should be punished to the full extent of the law?
to a degree i concur with deadly on the removal of the profit motive for selling cannabis, except that i disagree with blanket legalisation. i beleive, as does the person sitting in prison as we speak, that it should be treated the same as tobacco(you can grow it, and smoke it. but you can’t sell it without a licence).
sorry, that’s obscene profits FROM prohibition”
I do struggle working out the difference between the impact of tobacco/alcohol and cannabis.
NONE should be used by someone who still has a developing brain, but will be and is.
Young people pick up on our hypocrisy vis a vis alcohol and cannabis, and it means any other argument is instantly lost
@tracey.. too true.. on both points..
if i was to characterize the differences between alcohol and cannabis, i would say that alcohol removes the inhibitions that normally would stop us from behaving in antisocial/irresponsible ways. cannabis tends to inhibit ones motivational abilities to the point of stopping one from functioning at the level one is capable of.
i use this comparison to illustrate the long term effects of prolonged and constant use… one off instances of the harm caused by over indulgence tend to point to alcohol being the more harmful of the two. cannabis tends to have harmful effects over the long term. moderate and sensible use of both would mitigate the harm from both.
tobacc, of course, stands out all by itself in the long term/short term harm it does.. quite apart from the absolutely addictive nature of it’s use.
You may well be right bb, I would add the alcohol use can lead to angry and violent outbursts, I cant recall seeing a stoned person being violent, perhaps when not stoned, but not when stoned.
The thing is there is still this prevailing idea that one or two drinks of an evening is somehow “better” than a couple of “tokes” a day.
I stopped the later (and never on a daily basis) when I noticed some short term memory issues affected work.
However, if you go drinking with South Koreans or Japanese they usually get more mellow and smiley with alcohol. Definitely doesn’t seem to go down the anglosaxon route of having a pint and a fight.
@bbfloyd
@brett…. so when a person can be locked up for possessing a small amount of shade leaf, would you call that “a hell of a lot of badness”? consider that that person has never been convicted of any violent crime.
No, but if they have been before the courts 4 or 5 times, it becomes a bit of an issue, giving a big up yours to the judge doesn’t go down particularly well.
It is irrelevant that smoking weed is a victimless crime, the fact that it is considered a crime is the main issue.
If your average punter can decide what is legal and what is not, than you have a recipe for total anarchy.
i’ve found that the environment, and what is drunk has a bearing.. scotch whiskey disagrees with me, but bourbon makes me emotional and likely to break out in elvis impersonations.. were they drinking sake?
@brett… one conviction for possessing a joint, two convictions for growing less than five plants, spread over thirty years.on all convictions the police were agreeable that there was no intent to sell or was there any involvement with any kind of “organised” crime. would you call that person a “hardened criminal”? this last time, there were NO plants, as he was not growing anything, nor was the leaf his. it was left in the back of his ute nad he had no knowledge of it’s existence. the court chose to ignore that.(the leaf in question was basically dead rubbish which had no value to anyone, either to smoke or sell. probably why it wasn’t claimed by the owner. most likely headed for the rubbish bin. or someones compost.
It wasn’t until today that I was alerted to this statement so belated congratulations on making it Trevor.
I have a guest post at The Standard today referencing the fact that even Newt Gingrich has had an epiphany in respect of prisons, so it’s about time the left – let alone the right – in NZ followed suit.
However if you wait for Power to respond you’ll be waiting a long time, I suspect. Take the initiative and say Labour will end the “law and order auction”.
The NSW Liberal Party took the pledge two years ago and seems to have stayed on the wagon since, while it’s increasingly desperate Labor opponents seem like they’ll bang the same tired drum in the coming state election.
This is a policy area in which Labour can potentially carve a defining niche while at the same time saving significant amounts of money…
As Gingrich notes “Florida’s incarceration rate has increased 16 percent, while New York’s decreased 16 percent. Yet the crime rate in New York has fallen twice as much as Florida’s. Put another way, although New York spent less on its prisons, it delivered better public safety.”
That’s better public safety and more money for Labour’s other programs. What are you waiting for?!
How many of those in prison are Maori? Just thought I would mention the elephant in the room. I wonder what the imprisonment rate for Maori here is, compared to that for Maori in Australia?