Later this week Kiwirail are likely to begin consultation on the closure of rail in the far north on behalf of the government.
I’ve got an opinion on this question which is not that popular with friends on both the right and left.
I think the rail link to Marsden Point should be completed. It is probably the key to a decent integrated transport system for New Zealand.
Marsden Point is the best port in the country. Deep water, natural and because it is so far north it saves sailing time for the massive ships that will be servicing NZ in the future.
The road industry hate the idea. Port of Auckland’s owner not impressed. Auckland colleagues don’t agree.
But worth talking about before the options are narrowed.
Agreed Trev and rail is so much cleaner than motor vehicles.
Northlands, particularly the far Norths, economic underdevelopment partially at least relates to the fact that rail never extended beyond Okaihau (near Kaikohe) and substantial rail, beyond Whangarei. The effects of that isolation linger to this day. Auckland to Kaitaia was a 10 hour journey until the mid 70s when seal was extended.
In the 1920s it could have happened but for political machinations, one Allen Bell independent and then Reform MP after initially supporting rail was captured by the trucking lobby and stumped the district supporting secondary ‘feeder’ roads from farms instead of a main trunk line (this stuff is all on record at the Northland Age archives).
Rail makes sense for Marsden point for so many reasons.
Problem is that even though the connection to Marsden Point is vital for the continued growth of this port, major investment is also required on the rest of the rail line to Auckland. This would mean enlarging or lowering the floor of tunnels to allow the passage of 40-foot containers, and the easing of many, many, bends. As a port, Marsden Point has so much going for it- deep water, plenty of land available, easy ship access with no river or long narrow channel to navigate. Aucklanders want their waterfront back for use as public open space, but the lobby strength of Ports of Auckland and Port of Tauranga seem to be offering huge opposition to any further development at Marsden Point. As a matter of interest, Kiwirail and the Northand Regional Council have already designated the rail corridor, but have yet to actively purchase any of this, despite promises. Land owners are in limbo.
I wish I could look 100 years into the future, as I see Marsden as a large operating port, but it will only happen if we at least preserve the infrastructure which will be required. Or will rail be replaced by a fast tug and barge service. Rail to Whangarei is certainly not a money-maker at present.
I would like to hear the opinions of anyone interested in this thread, as it is certainly a topic of interest in Whangarei.
tut tut Trevor, that’d be planning for the future – we don’t do that in NZ!
i’m starting to wonder if our government is being blackmailed into doing the stuff they are at present… surely they aren’t so stupid as to not see the obvious.. an area that is struggling to stay viable, and hang on to it’s useful people should not be hamstrung even more than it already is.
maybe i’m being too harsh on the nats,… maybe it’s just old fashioned payola.. it certainly isn’t common sense driving their decision making.
@bbfloyd, My first comment on this is still in moderation for some reason. There is no ‘conspiracy’ going on, the whole thing falls into the ‘too hard’ basket at the moment. Who really knows what usage such a line would get in the immediate future, even with the Auckland link upgraded, when the shipping companies such as Maersk decide where their hub ports will be. If Marsden Point does have a future, other than as an oil import/ refined products export facility, it will not be until ship size exceeds the ability of Auckland and Tauranga to handle them. The way container vessel size is increasing, this day may be not too far away, as obviously shippers wish to take advantage of the economies of scale. Already there are ships operating in the 15000plus twenty-foot-equivalent container size, but further growth is limited by the Panama and Suez canals, and the Straits of Malacca. So a whole new strategy of container routes may be required. There is no “blackmail” “payola” going on. Nor is it a failure of common sense, it is just a very expensive solution for a problem which may not arrive for some time.
But worth talking about before the options are narrowed.
Quite right.
Trevor
Best if you look at the data on Marsden Point first before you say anything. But given what you guys paid for Kiwirail why am I not surprised…
It is Not the best port in the country; it has significant constraints.
The first is depth – it has major issues in swells with depth under the keel of heavily laden ships. That actually means ships can’t enter its channel when swells reach a certain point, which is relatively frequent occurrance. They’ve had to put in a special buoy that measures swells and warns off approaching vessels. No other major port has that AFAIK.
Another issue is navigation up the channel. It requires some quite tight turns and large ships already find it difficult. Bigger ships, bigger problems.
insider, am interested to read your responses to points Richard raised. I am not a Northlander nor do I have any port/shipping expertise.
@insider. You are quite right about the “swell buoy”. This is only at one point in the approach to the port, and would easily be fixed by dredging or blasting in the future. I am sure that this problem occurs only because of the extra draft of tankers as compared with other ships. Tankers necessarily float very low in the water with minimum freeboard. Looking at photos of container ships, they are nowhere near as deep.
Even looking at Google Earth, I cannot see your argument about tight turns. All ships are brought into port now under the control of the Port Pilot, and tugs as required. It has never been raised as an issue up here. Marsden Point remains the best and deepest port in the country.
@ Tracey
Ditto. But my reading of it is that Northland has issues taking larger ships. It’s own material says it can’t go much bigger than the current vessels calling in NZ and has limited berths. Why go all the way to NOrhtland when you have a much bigger port operation in Auckland, one that probably has greater capacity to grow.
Rchard
Northport’s website says the channel configuration limits it to vessels of 275m (due to the turn round the number 14 buoy and encroachment of the north side of the channel perhaps?). Dredging may resolve it.
MAersk Dunbar in Auckland is 263m so not great scope to increase to cope with larger 6kTEU vessels, which is what MAersk are wanting to do, and the massive ships Trevor is going on about (which I don’t think are a goer anyway – we are not big enough to merit the really big 15kTEU or VLCCs).
Emma Maersk, the largest existing container ship has a draft of 15.5 meters. A supertanker draws about 24 meters. Marsden Point has an approach channel depth of 14.7 meters, so while not able to take the largest ships (not many ports worldwide can) MP can already accept ships of good size.
Auckland too has approach channel constraints insider, and does NOT have capacity to grow; it is in fact shrinking. How many major cities have their port at the foot of the main street? Therein lies the problem for the future, which is what we started discussing.
Of course MP has limited berths, these will be built as required. No good building them now and hoping ships will come. But a fourth berth is already being planned.
Perhaps they should look at extending the railway through from Kaikohe to Kaitaia and develop a deep water port there.
Spud – ypu show your ignorance and dumb belif that anything said by the greenie – pro-rail groups is true. the efficiency of rail depends upon so many factors not the least the demand to transport generally bulky products long distances to major depots. Short distances where products are widely distributed in not a strgth of rail as there is considerable cost in relocating product. So what are the product being transported? what is the cost of maintenance of the lines, and rail infrastructure. Are trains full both ways (empty trains cost a lot to move)
and I suppose the last point is will a cycle trail be better and create much more jobs up in Northland – great climate and scenary and plenty of activities – maybe a John Key cycle trail is the way to go.
Maybe Joyce should talk to Carter Holt Harvey, Fonterra and the Marsumi Chip Mill at Portland who are the major users of the line. They are both supporters of rail investment and would be appalled to have their transport choices narrowed.
It would be incredibly short sighted to close this line for the sakes of something like $10 million a year.
There really is only one major problem with the line and that is the Makarau tunnel which is too small for the biggest containers, and has very dodgy geology so may cost $50 million plus to sort out.
All this is a small fraction of the amount proposed for the Holiday Highway, not to mention the benefits for the whole of the road network to Northland.
“Spud – ypu (you) show your ignorance and dumb belif (belief) that anything said by the greenie – pro-rail groups is true.”
“and I suppose the last point is will a cycle trail be better and create much more jobs up in Northland – great climate and scenary and plenty of activities – maybe a John Key cycle trail is the way to go.” Yeah, are all those products going to be towed from the back of their bikes?
And the fatties won’t have a nice train to sit on. 
Bikes don’t carry a lot
Sad Train
Montykins, my comment is a comin’ just waiting on a mod to let it out!
I’m surprised few have joined the dots. The reason this line is to be closed is so that when Joyce is promoting the Puhoi-Wellsford “holiday highway” as a necessary project to waste $1.6 billion on, he can say “there are no alternatives”.
It’s as simple as that really.
It is hilarious that Joyce is willing to waste well over a billion dollars on Puhoi to Wellsford, yet the North Auckland line is to be closed for economic reasons…
I support Trevor on this one,
I caught what now seems to be the last passenger steam excursion up to Whangarei earlier this year.
Talking to those on board revealed:
(1) That no incentives are being given to the portland cement works who have an old siding near Whangarie but stikc every thing on the road-that traffic increase alone as i understand it would justify the line. Many are concerned at the damage the PLC trucks are doing on the state high way one highway infra structure. We had truckies on board saying that it was nuts to have SH1 as the only effective option.
(2)Kiwirail have in recent years done a lot of work on the line to Whangarie-the Dargaville line is in poorer shape and the Bay of Island’s line all but closed.
(3) That the more neglected Bay of Island’s line could be reinstated as a heritage line along with the Northland line-indeed this was put as a proposal in combination with the cycle way was rejected-now we seem to have a “Joyce” twisting of that original propsoal.
(4) There is an large international market heritage rail who alreayd pay signficant amounts to go on main land steam’s excusions. The same demographic come in droves in cruise ships to the Bay of Island and Auckland. What a potential connection! A private operator could run the service and its volume would not interupe freight.
The majority of the community don’t want road trains.
Yes the tunnels would need lowering and some bridgework done but if the line is mothballed, thats it.
The cost of every thing and value of nothing…
Richard
Agree with Jeremy; Monty, the goods are transported in containers. Guess what, you can also fill them with goods, be that milk powder, F&P medical stuff, timber, etc. Do you really believe all the trucks you see on the road run around full all day? Do the logging trucks take goods BACK from any port to the forests where they are harvested? I am really being to worry about your lack of common sense matey.
As for the rail trail – you’ll be able to quote the 1000′s of jobs that have been created….
glad to get you interest up R.T.F… reading a lot of status quo validation going on, but precious little engagement in the issues that count… my comment was, of course, pure speculation.. and as such, i was surprised with the seriousness with which is was reacted to… curious to discover the true reasons for that. but not THAT curious..
one small point… if supertankers can come in to marsden point, then why can’t others? two; ever heard of dredges anyone?
seems like people just want to find reasons for stifling debate on ways to bring northland back to a place where their young and talented don’t have to leave to make their way in the world..
@bbfloyd. As a Northlander I feel very strongly about this end of the country always being ignored. As soon as a suggestion is made to upgrade SH1 heading north, it gets dubbed a ‘holiday highway’ and rubbished by mainly Aucklanders. Same with any development of our rail link and port. If it hadn’t been for the persistence of the late Ralph Trimmer, we would not have got even the oil refinery. He had plans for a container port at Marsden Point, long before Auckland got into the act. He died before this came to fruition, and nobody else had the drive to see it through. Marsden Point’s day will come, and I agree with Trevor that the infrastructure for transport other than road, MUST be preserved in the meantime.
What we know as ‘supertankers’ can’t use this port. And even some of the larger conventional tankers have to part-discharge at Australian refineries before arrival here. Tankers are deep-draft vessels. The fact remains though that the approaches can be dredged deeper, to take larger ships, but the volume of traffic is required before this can be done.
As I said, Marsden Point’s day will come, when Auckland and Tauranga ports are overstretched through volume of shipping, or are unable to accommodate the size of ships presented by the shipping companies. It may not be too far away, but in the meantime we need to preserve the rail link between Whangarei and Auckland, and commit to the spur line to the port at Marsden Point.
Trains can serve dual purposes, funnily enough. Have just been in UK and Europe for a few weeks they ask me what our rail is like (from a tourism perspective). We suggest they drive.
Trains and freight links and a decent point could be just the filip (sp) Northland needs. It’s farming is constantly hit by droughts or floods and seems to be the only lasting form of production and employment, oil refinery aside.
I know I have been anti the wellsford road BBfloyd and we have crossed sword on this. I do support a decent debate on igniting growthin Northland. It has so many opportunities.
Most people I know who have cycled the otago rail trail, for example, did not cycle down there. Rail would work nicely with cycle trails transport people and their bikes hither and yon.
“As a Northlander I feel very strongly about this end of the country always being ignored.” Hear hear.
Trevor’s post refers to the potential closure of rail in the Far North rather than Marsden Point – just thought I’d point that out.
Tracey, “It’s farming is constantly hit by droughts or floods and seems to be the only lasting form of production and employment”
Northland also has a shipbuilding industry, a significant forestry industry, Portland Cement’s rather large, Winstone Aggregates, is APN’s finance arm still there?, Northland’s the place to grow citrus fruit & avocados obviously, Northland Metal Industries makes rotary cowsheds etc, there’s aquaculture, and the Fonterra plant at Kauri is apparently the only fractionation plant in New Zealand, whatever that means.
So far as I can see the distance to Marsden from everywhere else is significant because everywhere else still has to move stuff to and from Marsden.
I was under the impression Marsden’s key significance is the oil refinery?
@Richard the First
Yes the key problem is the Makerau tunnel put through Onerahi Chaos, has always been a big bottleneck and it’s not the only one IIRC.
But realistically if Marsden is a significant port, stuff can be moved to and from it by sea (coastal shipping).
Lack of traffic is the obvious impetus, meaning there are no large customers like coal or milk to generate a steady revenue stream. There have been economic question marks over the lines probably for decades, and remember, Dargaville was not actually opened until the 1940s, such was the lack of financial imperative, and a number of other lines have closed so there is not much left.
I think there is a certain inevitability in the fact that this is such a long line that serves a very sparsely populated area (apart from Whangarei). Forget about north of Wh because there’s nothing happening. Unless you’re expecting major population growth in Northland in future it is not realistic to have a railway for the amount of traffic generated.
@Spud
The moderation thing is a little weird haven’t you noticed? Just seems completely random.
the latest goss is that the line to Whangarei will be retained and upgraded. The line to Dargaville and north to Otiria (near Kawakawa, Bay of Islands) will be closed except for the 10km spur from Whangarei to the Kauri Dairy factory.
Still very disappointing and short sighted but much harder to argue against as the announcement will have a very positive spin.
@Luke, you are meaning the line to Otiria is kept open to Kauri or is the 10 km on a separate line from the main line to Otiria.
swampy, isnt the farming up north mainly dairy? Or did I misunderstand your point (possible it’s a tired old thing sitting here)
Attached is from the KiwiRail website. It pretty much explains the position. We will have to make sure that submissions are made to keep the line open until the future usage is more certain.
Consultation on the future of North Auckland lines will begin in early 2011
KiwiRail will begin consultation with Northland communities early in 2011 over the future of the railway lines north of Auckland, says Chief Executive Jim Quinn.
Media statement 21 December, 2010
For immediate release
Consultation on the future of North Auckland lines will begin in early 2011
KiwiRail will begin consultation with Northland communities early in 2011 over the future of the railway lines north of Auckland, says Chief Executive Jim Quinn.
“The way we review the future of lines in Northland will not differ significantly from the approach we have taken with other minor lines such as Stratford-Okahukura and Napier-Gisborne,” he said.
“This has involved meeting key stakeholders, explaining what is needed to make the line profitable, canvassing support among existing and potential customers and giving the community itself a role in finding an anchor customer or customers to underpin the future of the line.”
Mr Quinn says a “minor line” is one that carries low levels of traffic that in many instances travels at low speed due to its physical condition.
“As we have reviewed the business it has become clear that the lines north of Auckland are very unprofitable and require significant capital to maintain them at their current level – let alone improve transit times.
“KiwiRail needs to operate in a commercial manner. This does not give us the luxury of maintaining lines that carry limited traffic and cost us a significant amount of money to maintain.”
He says the North Auckland Line is the most complex of the minor lines because it is a group rather than a single line. The segments Auckland to Whangarei, Dargaville branch line, the line north of Whangarei and the possible line to North Port all need to be understood separately.
“KiwiRail is ensuring it has information it can share easily with each group of stakeholders. We intend to engage fully early in 2011 so that there can be good engagement through the year if required.”
Mr Quinn says a review does not mean automatic closure or mothballing of lines.
“It is a process by which KiwiRail can identify lines’ current and future business, long term trends or developments that might influence future traffic and non-financial benefits that lines provide to communities.
“As part of any review of a line, we have committed to following a process of engaging with the community and establishing all the facts, opinions and possibilities for expanding revenue.
“If a commercial view is that a line should close or be mothballed, we discuss with Government and the community options to bridge the gap between a commercial approach and keeping the line open.”
To date, reviews have advanced to community consultation level in the case of the Stratford-Ohakura (SOL) and Napier Gisborne lines. The SOL was moth-balled for two years in June of this year following a consultation process that extended from November 2009 to April 2010.
Consultation on the future of the Napier-Gisborne Line is continuing.
Ends
Issued by KiwiRail
Media contact: Jenni Austin, Public Affairs Manager, Northern, Phone 021, 961 495
Category: KiwiRail Group
Posted by: Admin User
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To give another example from above
Napier to Gisbourne Been under threat for decades
So nothing new there
and I think nothing new for other lines mentioned either
I think there has to be some publicity lobbying around the social aspects of some of our services…
ACC is social based not profit based, it is not about a bottom line profit as insurance companies are, it’s about fairness and removing expensive litigation, getting people fixed early, rather than paying in the end from long term bad injuries (untreated) lengthy workplace abscences etc etc
Schools are about educating, nurturing and opening the world of possibilities to young people (as opposed to cloning or indoctrinating)
Healthi s about, well, health, getting people healthy, keeping people helathy so they contribute to society in a healthy way
Transport is a necessity for business and socialisation, maintaining family ties etc etc. A train experience enables a family to travel safely, no whining kids distracting drivers, movement around cabs, sitting together, picnicking on the train, less people on roads, less deaths
With the imminent closure of the North Auckland Line, and the expansion of the MP Port, this will lead to an increase of traffic on the State Highway (Whangarei-Auckland), then the only alternative is to create a cycle-way on the rail corridor, which would mean that every little town, village, siding or scenic location will have a tourist focused facility. If the average cyclist cycles 50-100km per day, then this would mean a two day journey therefore there will be backpacker-hotels, cafes, camp grounds etc springing up all along the route. And what an attractive holiday alternative for many Auckland families to get out and about, and have cycling holiday, inexpensive too, and sooo good for the health of the (Auckland) nation.
‘Rides of National Significance.’
“The Northland rail corridor would be far more attractive & financial proposition to the northland economy as a cycle-way.”
Through the eyes of a kiwi mountain biker perhaps, but not necessarily to the undefined ‘international cycle tourist’.
Northland’s main tourism assetts are its (especially eastern) coastal areas.
The North Auckland line runs nowhere near either of them.
While improvements in cycling infrastructure for transport and tourism within and between our cities and towns are desperately needed, destroying what is an essential component of our transport infrastructure network to satisfy an immediate to short term recreational desire is strategically extremely unwise.
Reducing our transport options negatively affects our economic competitiveness, sustainability and resilience in the longer term and further increases our dependence on -and vulnerability to, the price and availability of imported fossil fuels.
Ensuring the security of a nation is THE fundamental responsibility of ‘government’.
This National government continues to ignore our obligations to reduce our carbon emissions as agreed under the Kyoto Protocol and a 2010 Parliamentary Research paper on the likely effects of the inevitable and inexorable rise of the price of the oil on which New Zealand’s economy and society are completely dependant. ( i.e. Peak Oil – google> “The Next Oil Shock” )
The money about to be wasted on the Puhoi-Wellsford Motorway extension would be more appropriately invested in developing tourism ( including cycle-based) routes and facilities through coastal regions such as Warkworth>Matakana>Leigh>Pakiri>Tomorata>Te Arai >Mangawhai>Langs Beach>Waipu>Whangarei – which are currently under-utilised by both domestic and international tourists and where there are some fantastic opportunities for ‘rides of national significance’.
Alan Preston, Mangawhai, Northland.NZ
National, correct if I am wrong, were never much interested in the longterm wellbeing of railways anyway. That probably helps to explain why the contract to manufacture locomotives at the Dunedin production line went to a Chinese firm. I don’t like the lack of confidence that the Government has in New Zealanders.
But there is more than just transport riding on this. You have environmental, economic and social issues riding on National not showing New Zealanders any confidence in our ability to do skilled jobs.
Tourism is not the only lifeline for Northland. I agree with Trevor, and another poster whose name I forget (sorry) – might be my old pal Richard the first, who did have a discourse with another poster about the Marsden Point port. Northland has VERY high unemployment and associated problems, it is in all our interests to find a way out.
Ports of Auckland being worried is a good sign because it indicates the talk is viable. But POA is a competitor and their advice, input and opinion must be treated as such.
Which MPs oppose rail? Let me know that this is not the position of the Labour Caucus. Please, please. We’re at the point of despair about Labour at the moment.
If they close it, it would be a loss that would cost many millions to get back when such a link is needed – particularly if things take off at Marsden Point.
As for the cycletrail, they could always have it beside the railway…