The news that secondary teachers are set to strike within the next two weeks sets up an interesting situation. The Ministry of Education do the negotiating on behalf of the government with teachers. My sources tell me that industrial action is looming in the Ministry of Education itself, with pay talks stalled and the mood souring.
Will Anne Tolley soon have on her hands not only the teachers on strike, but her Ministry staff out as well? And will the negotiators for the Ministry of Education be able to come back to the table if there is movement from the teachers, or will they be on strike as well?
T
L L Y causing strikes? 
Nooooo 
God. I was talking to one of my teachers and he thought this was going to happen. I don’t get how the MoE can’t see that asking the teachers to do more work for less pay is highly unlikely to be agreed to.
Lol! Just realised that my mock exams are in two weeks – great timing there!
Teachers striking should be illegal. And don’t they consider themselves professional? My arse.
Take a listen tot he contract between Plunkett interviewing over this issue this morning and his interview with Hide a few minutes later. I’m pleased about the strike, cos now parents like Chris, Rebecca and Monty can stand in their children’s classroom for 6 hours and do the teaching they profess to know so much about. Not “keeping an eye on them”, teaching them
contrast, not contract… am drafting a contract…
Hi Richard,
L L Y’S fault 
T
‘Teachers striking should be illegal.’
Why? If they are that invaluable…surely they deserve more pay.
I’ll take what teachers have to say seriously once they sort this little issue out first:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/news/4072447/Criminals-in-our-classrooms
Sound fair?
As thedim post put it:
Earth to teachers: the cupboard is bare. The stopwork meetings called for today and tomorrow by the secondary teachers’ union suggest its executive inhabits a parallel universe.
In case the Post Primary Teachers Association has not noticed, the economy is flagging, businesses are cutting costs and most workers are making do with minimal or no pay increases. Some are grateful to just have jobs. Now is not the time to be demanding 4 per cent wage rises, increased KiwiSaver contributions, a laptop for every teacher and smaller class sizes. Nor is it the time to be downing chalk to vote on strike action.
The public are really going to get behind them – not! I’m glad that labour are supporting this action – and I hope that they are loud and vocal about it.
I think that the teachers are mad and should be ashamed.
Thats why I opt’ed out of the public schooling system for my kids.
All the teachers are doing is further alienating themselves from parents by demonstrating how out of touch with reality they are, in the present economic climate a 2.5% increase is pretty good as for the other bits and pieces I don’t think flue jabs should be a problem and it sort of makes sense, but some of the other things are pie in the sky.
The biggest issue is the best teachers get paid the same as the worst (possibly criminal) teachers, we don’t adequately reward the ones that are actually making a difference.
But that’s what unions are all about of course, same crap deal for everyone.
1.5% increase is what they have been offered not 2.5%
Ben, isnt this the supply and demand model you and others often talk about? The model which says if there is a demand for a service/skill then they can demand more? This is the right’s mantra for how wages “naturally” can improve.
If enough of the teachers are such crap, the moe will refuse the rise, let people resign and hire new ones, right?
Funny how teachers, nurses, radiographers etc shouldnt be allowed to strike cos of who their “clients” are, yet the employers of those groups can use that very myth to blackmail them into accepting less than their value.
Just where is this proof of all these “bad” teachers.
I would guess most professions can be divided in three distinct groups
25 below average
20% above average
55% average
Go offer to teach your child’s class for the day of the strike ben, really show them how teaching is done.
Guys – This isn’t just about pay. Read the link that Grant put in his post, another issue here is that National is removing the cap on 26 student limits in school classrooms. Last week I put a comment on that Karoshi post saying that this was going to happen and I am very impressed as to how fast the Union has acted over this.
The size of the classroom is a very vital part to the success of the students. I have been in classrooms that have been pushed over the 26 student limit into the 30s and the difference is enormous, for one it was much much harder for the teacher to discipline the students. But the main thing was that I never got any 1 on 1 time with the teacher and I can easily say I did worse in those classrooms, namely this was my English class. 1 on 1 time with teachers and students is very important, not only because it lets the teacher better address where the student specifically needs help in the topic but I also like having conversations with the teacher about things which are getting slightly outside of the topic which is good for broadening your general knowledge and I have developed some good relationships with my teachers because of these kinds of conversations.
This is a ridiculous reform and I am very thankful of the teachers union for fighting it. It has really made me realise that unions are the only tool we have to fight incompetent Government policies.
This has also made me realise how fiscally irresponsible National is. Because they have decreased Government revenue by decreasing tax and neglecting other sources of govt. revenue they now have to cut back on public services. In this case instead of building more classrooms so each and every child can have the decent education that they deserve they have to take the worse and cheaper option of cramming as many students into the classroom as possible.
And if you do not support the teachers striking because of this issue then get out of this country because in New Zealand for over 100 years we have had the heart and the brains to believe in good public education. Yes we voted National in. But did National say they were going to worsen education by cramming too many students into our classrooms? No!
‘The biggest issue is the best teachers get paid the same as the worst (possibly criminal) teachers, we don’t adequately reward the ones that are actually making a difference. ‘
As do Police, nurses, and all workers whose pay is broad banded with a ceiling.
‘in the present economic climate a 2.5% increase is pretty good’
Which will equate to a 5% pay reduction over this and next year, given the RBNZ inflation rate and predictor.The block of cheese tax cuts not withstanding…
“‘The biggest issue is the best teachers get paid the same as the worst”
Peter you are wrong here some of the best teachers are paid LESS than others. This is dependant upon qualification to teach not on skill, Q1 vs Q3 or Dip to a degree in teaching. This equates to $10k p.a. difference. Do we pay politicians, doctors,police a different salary based on qualifications yet still performing the same vocation? No so why do we allow this in teaching.
Not only do secondary teacher deserve more but so do Primary and Early childhood, as do the above mentioned professions. Yet who does not deserve 4% and additional KS contributions? Unfortunatley if we give all to one where will it stop. Give them a pay rise and then increase PAYE taxes or reduce services that some politicans may support, give with one hand and take with the other we have seen this before !!!
But if they can achieve their demands good on them.
Herodotus…’Peter you are wrong here some of the best teachers are paid LESS than others. ‘
I understand that any differential is more of a legacy from older contracts. The higher qualifications allow for a higher start rate but all end up on the same salary in due course.There are some exceptions , for example those without a degree will have a top of scale lower than those who do.
The huge huge majority of teachers at secondary level are all in the same boat. That is, the leaky one.
The pay offer is effectively a 1.25% increase per year for 2 years. 1.5% from settlement and 1% one year after.
I understand that pay increases have been quite small for people this year. However, I’m not comfortable with the idea of being locked in to minimal increase for 2011, when the economy may be recovering, inflation will be high and interest rates also creeping up.
There’s way more to this than just money anyway. Changes to NCEA are going to have a very big effect on workloads as they roll in over the next 3 years, but this doesn’t get recognised. Agreements relating to class size limits will also be completely removed if we accept the government offer. Then there are isues with non-contact time, senior subject advisors and so on.
The idea of performance based pay sounds good, but to implement it fairly and not have negative effects in other areas is probably impossible. If another country had a system for performance based pay which worked it could be worth investigating.
@Richard
They are professionals and, like all professionals, when you treat them like shit they walk away.
Labour and the other left parties should be looking at legislation for mandatory cost of living pay increases. People shouldn’t have to negotiate having their pay stay the same. Certainly to up the minimum wage by the CPI every quarter.
Pay isn’t the main reason of the strike. Read the link!
‘It’s not just a problem about what teachers have got in their back pocket. There are a whole range of claims in our package, and none of them have been addressed’ – ‘Ms Gainsford said parents would support strike action because issues like class size were a community concern.’
Is pay all you people care about? sigh*
Peter Q1 and Q3 even after 10 odd years still end up over $10k apart, and for primary (accepted not PPTA) about 1/3 of the teachers do not have a degree.
I thought the legacy was to enable parity the conditions had to be the same even if the 2 work forces are differnet in their make up. Not many sec teachers are without a degree but a large minority of primary are.
The boat was leaky a long time ago, the only difference is that we are seeing it sink from the damage that has been inflicted on it for a proplonged period. Just listen at a dinner with a few teachers there, hard for business not to be talked about all night long, and what is/was discussed is scary, just as well the parents are not there to listen in otherwise there would have been a middle class viva la revolution many years ago. Private schools have missed out by an large from this mis management. One are where we are getting close to Aust, the desire for private education.
Conditions are the issue – but as an aside I have had a pay cut with the ACC rise, and with the increase in GST of 2.5% in Oct my pay will go less far. My teen arrived home today from the supermarket (I have flu) astounded by the cost of milk – $4 for 2 litres. Yes other people have lower wages than teachers, but teachers work far more hours than parents and the public see, they are emotionally invested in their work and try their hardest to make a difference (mostly). I work in special needs teaching and in this area most of us are part time and combine several jobs. We have no job security as if ‘our kid’ moves the funding moves with them on that day – bye bye job. For this priviledge I have a Masters and am 2/3 way through my Doctorate in special needs education. I wonder how many non-teachers would gain so many qualifications just to lose job security?
How long will I be in moderation for?
The teachers should go on strike.
After all, a union taking on a wildly popular right-wing government with a charismatic leader worked out so well with the miners in the UK in ‘85 didnt it? Really stopped old Maggie in her tracks. NOT.
The moment the PPTA vote to go out on strike, Anne Tolley would be on her PC typing up a bill to bring back bulk funding. This government has the mandate (and the numbers) to smash the public education system (and the education unions) into little tiny pieces, and the teachers going on strike would just provide the excuse to go forth with the biggest privatisation move in this country’s history.
Remember, once the Iron Lady had squashed the NUM like her hubby would have squashed a bug in the Downing Street bathroom, she was free (and confident) to carry out the bulk of her privatisation agenda.
Dont get me wrong, I support the the union’s pay claim. But I think that going on strike would backfire in a very ugly way.
my 10 cents worth
1. Many Teachers think they work harder than any other proffession (some do, most dont, they just havnt experienced other proffessions).
2. Many NZlanders think teachers get alot of holidays (a small few abuse teh holidays they get and dont work in them, but most teachers work during there hoidays and do no get the 4 weeks per year most salary erners do)
3. If a student does well at school it is all because of the parents and yet if a student under performs it is the teachers fault.
4.The right does not like the strong teachers union and will do it most to undermine it and if at all possible limits its powers.
5.The left likes a strong teachers union as it can rely on it for support when out of office.
6.(personal opinion) National is making a mess of our education system, we will rue this government like we stil rue the messing with the apprenticeship schemes back in teh 90’s.
The Ministry is in a state of siege. The hitherto innovative champions of the revised curriculum have been made slaves (and willingly if they have submitted) to the government’s populist policies. Having your minister express ‘no confidence’ in the Ministry’s capacity to support student achievement wouldn’t have helped either. I know many in the Ministry, in teaching and in support services….ALL who think that this is the most fearful, bullying, autocratic, and demeaning of times to be in education. Perhaps the secondary sector might have been willing to swallow 1.5% if the hadn’t had to put up with being read patronising picture books. I am proud of the way teachers are standing up to Mrs Tolley. That must take some guts.
oh I stand corrected. 1.5% this year and another 1% next year
I have been a teacher and then principal over the last eight years. before this I was employed in Banking for 15 years or so.
I had never worked as hard in all my time in banks than I did as a teacher, never had as much pressure and accountability as I do now as a Principal.
It tires me too hear comments like those of Matthew Hooten on Nat Rad today saying that there is no accountability in teaching.
There are professional standards and appraisal systems in teaching just as in other jobs. Teachers are accountable to their community, to their children, to the principal, to their syndicate, to the Ministry, to ERO.
They are almost accountabled out at times!
This is about pay and conditions, and a fair go for students too. It is also about the disrespect that the current Minister of Education and Prime Minister have for teachers. That alone is worth striking for I reckon.
Cooks and Stewards, Boilermakers and now Teachers. The strength of the socialists (not)!
Dick, it was those socialist teachers that helped you learn about things that you know little about!
Hi Richard
When the Jed shot his gun he struck oil.
When Labour got Helen they struck gold.
When NZ got Tolley they struck out
Two strikes…. if she causes three will she be out?
I agree that Key’s comments on the issue show HE’S out of touch, and doesn’t understand that this is just as much about working conditions as it is pay.
@ nichola. Will be funny to see what they are willing to give up in their negations. I’m guessing that they are waaaaaaaaaay more interested in their 4% And the other bits are just so the don’t look too bad in the public eye. It’s so obvious it funny.
If it is about conditions, why doesn’t the PPTA drop the 4% payrise demand? I’m inclined to think the reason is because it is about salary, not conditions. 4% is unreasonable in this climate – and out of touch, and as Ben says, a good way to get parents offside.
Fabregas, in comparing banking to being a principal – are you comparing being a branch manager to being a principal, or being a teller to being a principal?
Anything less than cost of living increases is unreasonable and you’re just showing you total ignorance in suggesting that they should actually have to pay to teach (which is what even 4% does as their purchasing power will go down).
Yeah the elite always tell the workers their demands are unreasonable, and in the next breath the CEO’s get double digit % remuneration increases while Bill and John vote themselves $300pw pay hikes.
Shame on you for repeating self serving right wing propoganda.
@Loota
Which he gives to charity
Teachers got a 4% pay rise last year, and the year before that, and the year before that!
12% in three years.
(Actually, factor in that the increases were compounded, closer to 13%, but I digress.)
Whilst I am in no way suggesting that teachers do not deserve to be fairly remunerated, teachers unions need to remember that there is a financial crisis, and that expectations will have to be lowered.
(Just like all the other workers in the country!)
Absolutely right Bart. A bit of restraint might earn these ‘professionals’ a bit more respect, and sympathy when they have a go in better times. As a taxpayer, and therefore their employer, I am not at all impressed by their selfish tactics at this time.
The same financial crisis that allows for millions of dollars in tax cut for the wealthy?
Dick, you are not as a taxpayer, teachers employer. To suggest so is plainly stupid.
Good points Dylan, but some of the folks here dont even read the information when they realise it exists.
Ben and Monty and others would be appalled if their were 38 kids in their children’s classes, but instead they just focus on the wage increase.
So, the cupboard is bare? What about the 1 Billion for Joyces’ holidaying friend sup north, that could help? Still, it’s only teaching, let’s just put pressure on those in the “caring” professions to more for the love, while those in banking, and finance, and foreign exchange, and property investment get knighted for their success.
Bart & Richard, have you seen the salary comparison between teachers and the police?
Police work shifts, are on call 24 hours per day 365 days per year, and face much greater danger than a teacher ever will. Anyway what is wrong with a salary of about $70k for a secondary teacher? This is what my wife was paid before retirement. And the new SH1 is not only for Joyce’s holidaying friends, as you put it, but also for us who live here. I probably won’t live to see it finished, but what a difference it will make for the future of Northland. We may then be able to enjoy some of the attractions of Auckland without spending most of a day travelling.
Really @ greater danger and shift work, then why do Police get paid more than nurses, while nurses train for 3 years, with a student loan, and police train for 18 weeks, no loan?
Check out ACC data before you suggest policing is more dangerous than nursing.
Richard, I’m sure you will agree that policy decisions have to be deeper than people getting to Auckland quicker? How many live in Northland, out of interest, versus how many have children in schools?
You’re not a teacher, nurse or policeman are you Richard? (wink)
Chris73: I’d love to have that extra money in my pocket that I could just give away to my favourite charitable causes. Like the new pool/spa/gym complex at the private school my kids go to.
While I have health boards and universities cut back millions in services because the tax take is down, that is.
Generosity redefined!
No Tracey. Thankfully I am now retired. I take some exception to your inference that any money spent on Northland, or presumably other regions development, is wasted or unnecessary. Too often all we see from here is more money being poured into the bottomless pit that Auckland seems to have become. Don’t forget too that this new highway will be mostly within the new ’supercity’ boundary.
I was originally going to be a lawyer, like you. But I failed miserably. Glad I didn’t have to do that 6 minute time accounting though. One of my daughters succeeded thoug and qualified LlB BA. She’s brighter than me!
Good for her Richard
Richard, well done to her. The 6 minute unit sucks you dry. I no longer practice, so formerly I am an ex lawyer (only those with practising certs can be called lawyers).
I was not suggetsing anything for northlanders is a waste of money, I was suggesting if the choice was between, Joyce’s holiday highway and improved conditions for teachers, I would choose the later, because Govt is supposed to be about the hard choices not the popular ones.
Taxpayers are more like “shareholders” in education than employers. To suggest otherwise is like saying that I own 12% of contact energy so I employ everyone, I dont. That is done by Operational employees.
John key might give his to charity, but how many others do? The extra people he has taken on in his office, in Joyces”
I dont know what either side has conceded in this negotiation, and I’m surprised that Bea and Chris do.
What crap, for decades Auckland has recieved less than it has paid in general taxes and fuel taxes to support infrastructure in other parts of the country…
“How many live in Northland, out of interest, versus how many have children in schools”
I tick both those boxes. Many of the teachers for my kids’ school travel on State Highway 1, so improving the highway is improving their conditions. Two birds with one stone
.