Wait till an economic downturn arrives, and people are keen to hone their skills so they can get back into the workforce. Then slash adult & community education (“night school”), even though it is known to be a highly efficient use of taxpayer money.
When pushed on the logic of the decision, cry poor saying that “savings had to be made somewhere”.
Then rub salt in by substantially increasing funding to private schools at the same time.
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Cutting for core trade type training is of course daft, but I don’t have a problem that a millionaire entreprenuer friend of mine now has to pay for his Mandarin course…
As I understand it all they have done is withdrawn funding the classes are still available for those prepared to pay their own way. As Jeremy says above.
Far better than taxpayers funding golf and Hip Hop lessons as was done by your government at that dodgy outfit based at Te Awamutu.
I looked at this following another post on Red Alert a while back about Onehunha High School. Which was given as a example of such important training for people to hone their skills.
There were 113 courses being held. In total of 22 were what could fall into “business, English for speakers of overseas languages and computing.” and even then its a push – seriously.
There were 24 courses alone for Belly Dancing, Palates and yoga. Thats more than they offer across the entire curriculum of business, computing and teaching english.
Im sorry – despite how hard you try to spin it – the majority of the courses impacted were hobbie courses – and no Belly Dancing (of which my wife does with her girlfriends and I happily pay for) is not and never will be “known to be a highly efficient use of taxpayer money”
And before the left spinners come out to play – its pretty easy to research how many hobbie courses are out there – 000’s – thats a ton of tax payers money wasted !
If they offer free courses in commerce, science, engineering and trades – that is something we should be offering as cheap as possible, but the line has to be drawn somewhere…
Is this the best that you have got? Dragging out this tired old horse? No wonder your lot remain so far behind in the polls. Next thing is that you will be presenting these scientific polls as evidence in speeches.
The National Government inherited the worst set of book possible from Labour. The expenditure over income shortfall is $250m per week thanks for Cullen and his nasty effort to wreck the economy for the incoming government. So cuts needed to be made everywhere to rein in spending. These were part of that picture. And in spite of your rhetoric it is as much as anything cutting subsidies for hobby classes such as Hip Hop Dancing and Twilight golf.
@ Jeremy agreed!
However I must say as a Company Director, we’ve really struggled to recruit people who have completed silk scarf weaving courses..
Well said Monty – an excellent summary.
He he he tory bonding
!
Not everyone is a millionaire Jeremy.
Night classes are a really good way of upskilling adults and the poorer ones don’t need the price hike!
I’m sure all those Hip Hop classes and Twilight Golf classes were soaking up a hefty percentage of that $250m, right?
These ‘mini-polls’ must be really hurting the Tories, as they are voting and commenting as a pack.
I understand that Spud, but I’m not a fan of means testing – I think something is either a good idea or it isn’t – so we should restrict night courses to those we know we’ll need from an economic perspective…
I love how Pete is continuing to force the right wingers to defend education cuts for adults trying to retrain, for adults who have lost their jobs and are trying to upskill, etc. Its also fascinating how they’ve coordinated their responses to make the first dozen comments their own little self serving ‘echo room’.
1) Oh yes the classes are still there, just pay for them yourself! I guess this is the continuation of the right wing attitude to core services healthcare, education,…except of course many classes have had to shut down completely due to falling attendance.
2) Oh maybe classes would be worthwhile funding if it was a subject good for business or the economy, but not something which is just ‘a hobby’! cooking classes, dance classes, art classes, anything which might build up peoples cultural awareness, health and community spirit is ‘not worthwhile’. Anything good for business is ‘worthwhile’. A curious and obvious self serving NACT philosophy, yeah. Labour knows better.
3) And saying that rich millionaire businessmen should pay for their own mandarin courses lol I take it your friend is going to do something productive with his skills, like make more income for NZ? Strangely, I thought that would fit the NACT idea of something useful for the economy which the govt should invest a few dollars into but in this case it doesn’t? If this millionaire friend wanted to retrain as a doctor, should full foreigner rates apply too?
Keep at it Pete, the NACT supporters are falling over themselves to have a go at your posts, you’re hitting the pressure points!
Oh yeah, and saying that redundant people should pay for upskilling courses themselves while private schools for rich kids get more funding…that is idiocy.
Jennifer, the polls don’t even register for the “Tories”.. although it is a trifle silly that Pete will post them and not offer his 2 cents to those who bother replying.
It is perhaps surprising to some how many courses that on the face of it appear to be ‘hobby’ courses turn out to help entrepreneurs establish businesses that do assist employment and prosperity. I don’t even know if such a course as silk scarf weaving exists, but it may be an important ingredient in the training of a future teacher or designer or fabric artist or other business venture. Of course many of the so-called ‘economic’ courses no longer exist as insufficient people were prepared to pay the full cost – the same would happen with all schooling if it was made voluntary and full costs levied on pupils or their families.
The National Party’s research units have been working overtime lately and their lads and ladesses have been placed on red alert.
I am loving this series Pete. Looking forward to number 4.
P.S we had the threads on adult education sometime last year, you must have been away that day? Basically if a course can’t pay it’s own way it’s not that valuable. If someone can’t stump up $60 to learn tie dying I don’t see why I should chip in to help.
@ Ed ” I don’t even know if such a course as silk scarf weaving exists, but it may be an important ingredient in the training of a future teacher or designer or fabric artist or other business venture.”
Thats a reallllllly long stretch. Using your logic – we should pay for the Belly dancing classes on the off chance one of them wants to open a Turkish restaurant or a chain of dance schools.
@ Anne – Just because people disagree with you – it dosnt make them NAT members or paid research staffers.
Upshot – a lot of people agree with the g’ment and the changes they are making.
Unlike the predictions on this blog – there wasnt a huge and ongoing ‘uprising from the streets’ over this – and they still continued to poll WELL above labour.
A lot of people think cutting them was a blimmin good idea. Still – if labour disagrees – campaign on being theming back – I dare ya’s
I can see the posters now – a vote for labour is a vote for tax payer funded yoga classes.
Many of these classes have community building value, as well as building bridges between cultures. Many have health and fitness implications.
But of course in the NACT philosophy all that is worth a big fat zero.
Business courses – oh they’re all good to go of course
@Loota, Your typical response that completely contradicts your cries in other posts for financial sense, restraint and balanced budgets…
I haven’t contradicted myself at all and other people have different opinions, because people don’t share your view and have various views you caterogise them as NACTs who contradict each other… Must be sad living in your paranoid world with wealthy people constantly out to get you, part of a NACT conspiracy to rob you…
Knowing my mate we will likely use his Mandarin skills to drum up business and exchange earnings for us, but it is far from a give in while training people in professions that we have current shortage of is excellent use of taxes and a give in (if they don’t bugger off to Aussie)…
Surely the word hobby should give you the clue of who should pay for such courses…
You misrepresent me JMH.
I have never claimed that the Govt should balance budgets. (Unless you mean not giving away tax cuts to the rich, but the aim of that is not to balance budgets either)
On the contrary I have said the Govt should feel free to go into debt to fund technological and industrial development in our economy. Borrow to spend on the people and on the economy.
Don’t do it again mate
BS…
Just yesterday you said the government should raise progressive taxes to balance the budget…
And yesterday you misrepresented your previous claims on this blog by stating that you had never said you thought Air NZ was a good investment when previously, after I had criticised NZ’s holding in Air NZ, you said “It was good and would I rather the $20,000,000 odd the government had earned from Air NZ go overseas to which I replied, “Since they have $1,500,000,000 sunk in it and the interest on that alone would greatly exceed $20,000,000 then yes I would rather that profit go somewhere else”…
If you cannot even remember what you’ve said how can you claim I’ve misrepresented you…
I’ll say whatever I damn well please and let the mods decide what is in and out thanks…
Since we’re sharpshooting JMH this is exactly what I said yesterday:
So you took that to mean that I would raise taxes to balance the budget?
But my statement didn’t say whether those taxes should be spent or to create a surplus, or to bring the books back into a fiscally neutral (balanced) position.
In fact in my next sentence
I foreshadowed that there were certain line items of investment those progressive tax increases should be spent on.
So you misrepresented me.
Or if you prefer, gave me an opportunity to clarify my previous statement
As for my comments on Air NZ – I think I agreed with you that investing in the airline industry in general is a bad strategic move. I’ll say it again – I was agreeing with you that over all airlines, they have lost bucket loads of money. However your statement in this thread here is telling:
You have not understood the term ’sunk cost’ you refer to here.
That $1.5B (not sure where you pulled it from) is a sunk cost, as you say. It does not (rather should not) affect what the best investment decision is now since regardless of the option you choose you cannot recover the $1.5B sunk cost.
The Govt has a revenue stream from Air NZ now, and capital gain.
I think its a good thing, you think its a bad thing, c’est la vie.
If you want to address work skill shortages why don’t you target the funding in that direction rather than trying to claim that cutting Adult education courses, (which may or may not be used to retrain for new jobs), is going to cause problems. there are a multitude of different educational pathways, many of which are likely to have better outcomes for a retraining point of view than a lot of community education courses.
Yeah university, oh that’s right government funding means that they’re now turning people away!
)
(kinda makes me wonder why they bother continuing to advertise
It’s not only jobless adults who are now forced to pay for their own education. Children born with a disability, who then manage to do well at school, now have to take out student loans for tertiary study. As far as I know, there is not even a provision to allow them to take another loan if they need to repeat a paper they may have failed for health reasons. Allthewhile, we increase funding for private schools for the privileged and the nutters.
Silly idea 4 – Cullen buying the trains
Silly idea 5 – Waterfront stadium
Silly idea 6 – Electoral Finance Act
Silly idea 7 – Building trains in New Zealand
etc
“take out student loans for tertiary study”
What are you worried about…the loans are interest free
Yes Indiana, and a lot of disabled people won’t have to repay it at all, they won’t live long enough. So lets take what we can of them while we can. Anyway, plum jobs will only go to old boys and girls of fancy private schools before you know it.
@Augustus just burst out into a rousing chorus of do you hear the people sing and be done with it
I think they might just hear the people march on Aug 21 and 22
what are they marching for this time?
@ chris
A sense of humour is not your strong point.
Society is much more than an organisation to support a few holding most of the wealth generated.
Reading through the above posts gives insight to varied thinking and responsibility.
The village where everyone was known and kudos was bestowed on those who served the community well, has not kept pace with expansion and travel.
There were always those who just took for their own and every culture has its heros who fought such ruthless selfishness that degrades community life.
Progressive tax replaces progressive responsibility as we have a class who take and resist sharing their good fortune or sheer distortion of fair gain.
A blatant band of supporters for the plunder of all opportunities to screw any form of social cohesion, get smug comfort and encouragement from hearing and repeating dogma to suit their own narrow and selfish perspective.
I read you but no answers come from what you write.
Since when has denying education been a useful strategy.
The Douglas lot cut trade training and we all pay over and over with trade services still suffering as a result.
Unemployment still is a device to lower wages and is supported openly by many.
Spin, spin, spin Loota… When we are having a discussion about government debt and you raised increase progressive taxation as a solution of course anyone would assume you mean to either balance the books and/or create a surplus…
I really don’t think you realise how obvious your contradicts are that your self appointed role of Labour Red Alert Defender of the Faith often makes clear… You support the position of every MP’s post (even the indefensible such as Chris Carter’s spending and hip hop dance classes for millionaires), this kind of blind support means you prostitute your real opinions to keep up appearances and often they come out and you get caught in contradictions… Also quite often when someone points out a fact it’s obvious you didn’t know you often accept it as a given, and your long held opinion, even when a few months ago you had a completely different opinion that you have forgetten you’ve posted… It’s like watching a frustrating, non-sensical, argumentative, slow moving, cheerleading, train wreck…
On Air NZ, by using the word sunk I was of course referring to the government’s investment in Air NZ and of course the government can recover the money it has invested (or part) in Air NZ, by selling…
Air NZ total equity: NZ$1,605,000,000 (2009)
of which the Government owns 76.07%
$1,605,000,000 x 0.7607 = $1,220,923,500
Raboplus 1 year term deposit of 5.4%
$1,220,923,500 x .054 = $65,929,869
$65,929,869 > $21,000,000 (2009 profit)
See how easy that was…
As for the capital gain, the government investment was $885,000,000 in 2001 it’s now worth $1,220,923,500, a return of just over 27% on this amount of money over 9 years does not justify the investment, it is far less than historic interest rates, the dividends have been good most years and push up the returns but still not to a level worth risking so much tax payers money… We’ve discussed before the inevitability of peak oil in the next 20 years, the airline industry is the one industry whose fuel cannot readily be replaced by bio-diesel, hydrogen etc, how much is Air NZ worth if there is no fuel for planes..?
So yes I do think a government investment which; is earning less than a bank term deposit (a pathetic return), is in one of hardest industries to turn a profit, is very dependent on their current fantastic manager Rob Fyfe, is producing small yearly capital gains and is an industry in term liquidation is a bad thing…
So they cut Adult and community education funding from 16 Million to 3 Million, that’s a big slice of pie cut out, with only a few crumbs left.
Ace is defiantly no piss in the wind education provider- as it had an intake of around 409,000 students in 2008, and is said to have benefited the economy between 4.8 billion and 6.3 billion annually. Which is quite impressive. (how much government pays in unemployment benefits a year)
http://teu.ac.nz/2009/08/community-protests-about-ace-cuts-grow/
Ace offered small business, computing, carpentry, sign language, courses for the deaf impaired and ESOL
They also offered skills for life such as fashion design, car maintenance and cooking, teaching kids to read, budgeting, and Te Reo these could also be seen effectively as a good steeping stone to get into further training or work and improving quality of life.
It also provided immigrants a opportunity to learn english.
Due to the cuts the schools have to process 100 graduates in literacy and numeracy programs each term in order to qualify for the funding.
This cut can also mean loss of jobs. There are currently 15,000 tutors and 212 ace coordinators.
The core of people taking up these courses and maori and pacific islanders, which are the target group with higher unemployment statistics etc.
Ace is fantastic, as they didn’t lock anyone out of the education system, it’s a shame that it’s seen as low priority.
Money should be put to good use by providing people (especially high risk persons) with the skills to get jobs, manage their lives and move on to higher education.
Basically wasting money, on those that don’t need it – then blaming those that can’t achieve it.
Loota said “Many of these classes have community building value”
A much better sense of community building value, and more empowering for the community itself, would be if some in the community took the initiative to develop courses themselves. The local school might provide free or cheap rooms for them to use (or a local church etc) and some in the community with skills transferable to others could volunteer their time to teach.
Why that won’t happen? Because although some people like to get things free, and like to complain when their free things are no longer free, those people won’t get off their butts and organise something for themselves.
Marie: I take issue with your claim of benefiting the economy between 4.8 billion and 6.3 billion annually.
Please show where you got these figures from.
I suspect it is the PWC report which is based on such bad methodology it should preclude PWC from ever being paid from public money ever again, ever. It’s so bad PWC should be laughed out of NZ.
Cupla comments; ACE courses have been quietly succeeding in literacy and numeracy, so long as they are not thus advertised. A fair bit of shame goes with the territory. People don’t readily own up and develop excellent ccoping strategies to conceal. The second comment is that none of the government’s apologists bothered to challenge the efficiency angle or to defend the funding increase to private schools. Too tough?
LabRat.
Don’t you think if Pricewaterhouse Coopers had bad methodology they wouldn’t be regarded as being – one of the biggest auditing firms in the world and is also regarded as one of the worlds largest professional service companies.
They are responsible for auditing four out of the 10 largest public companies in America and is the same company that serves the USA’s federal government.
PwC is the company that NZ government also rely on to get business advice from time to time.
Hmm do you think your methodology’s better? can you show me yours?
I didn’t comment on the private school issue because I don’t really know what to make of it…
My parents sent my brother and I to private school for Primary and Intermeadite and (in the first few years) they sometimes had to not fill the car with gas to pay the tutition… The believed in our education, believed the state school’s weren’t good enough and were willing to sacrifice to pay for it (not everyone who goes to private school is rich)…
On the other hand it seems stupid (when most of the students are from wealthy families) to be giving some of the most wealthy people in the country a subsidy for a choice they have made, I’m sure they would argue that they’ve already paid through taxes and why should they pay fully twice…
Too tough for me, I don’t know which side of this argument I fall on and I’ve experienced both sides…
here’s the link
http://www.ed.co.nz/2010/02/22/reshaping-the-adult-and-community-education-market/
JMH, well I guess we’ll continue to agree to disagree.
You haven’t previously said that you favour selling Air NZ off, glad to now know where you stand. Sometimes it takes a bit of work to out an asset sales fan.
Ah you forget that I am learning all the time mate and I will change my opinions based on the new things I learn and read.
You see logical contradictions and the prostitution of ideals – I see the incongruencies of life and a process of continuous improvement where people always need to be put first.
Now back to your amatuer investment banking effort
1) The NACT Govt won’t sell (this term). So for now, this option is not actually available. The sunk cost remains sunk.
2) Going with the hypothetical then: how many billion dollar airline buyers are there in the world right now? Perhaps you could convince the Chinese govt or UAE to buy Air NZ? How will that fly with the NZ public?
3) Once its announced that the Govt is looking to sell its block of shares its pretty even money as to whether or not the market price will be immediately discounted. If it is, your $1.2B sale price becomes a dream of avarice.
4) Now, if world equity markets soared in the next few years and the Govt is able to sell Air NZ for say $5B AND it commits to putting that money in the Cullen Fund you and I might suddenly be in agreement that that is a good move. I’m open to the possibility.
5) As it stands, if NACT determine to sell Air NZ that sunk investment in Air NZ will be predictably paid out to the rich in the form of tax cuts and other benefits. Joe Average tax payer will get dimes in the dollar.
@JMH: From my own personal experiences, private schooling is an issue I don’t find particularly memorable. The perception was Eton College and Merchant/Ivory. The reality turned out to be more like a cross between Kath & Kim and Airstrip One – which kind of sums up where we’re currently headed.
Why do Labour MP’s have such a visceral teeth bared class hatred of private schools? Why did Labour annually savagely reduce the cost efficient partial government subsidy to pay teacher wages in their time in office. A partial reinstatement of this subsidy to help hard pressed parents and provide scholarships for disadvantaged kids to receive a great education is seen as a sensible move by moderate thinkers.
Like private schools, don’t think that education money should be shuffled there and cut from the vast majority of people who cannot afford private schooling
fisiani… you would do well to stick to your day job and leave the debate to others with a better grasp of reality. i’m assuming that your day job is writing press releases for patsy wong.
They should make her ask all the patsy questions in parliament
Loota you simply do not understand the economics of education. No money is cut from anyone for the survival of struggling private schools. Every child needs to be educated. This costs heaps. The state can pay 100% of the cost if provided in state schools or 10% of the cost in private schools. When parents take a child out of a state school and send her to a private school then the state saves lots of money.
In Australia 40% of children go to private schools and the Labour government thinks this is a good idea and subsidises them. (Aussie Labour they also like national standards, league tables and 90 day chance to prove yourself).
You still have not explained why there is a visceral hatred of private schools in NZ Labour.
Mate thanks for the australian example of private schools. By the way I think their definition of ‘private school’ is different to ours if 40% of their kids really go to one. Are you suggesting that 40% of NZ kids should go to a private school? Under what circumstances could this actually happen? When could it happen by? No its right wing pie in the sky stuff, taking money from education for the masses and giving it to the private schooling elite.
Now before you answer further you should be aware that Australia increased its Federal education spend 86% in absolute dollars from 2007 to 2010. basically a 25% per annum increase.
When is NACT going to do the same?