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Red Alert
Friday poll: Maori language and primary school children
Posted by Nanaia Mahuta on August 6th, 2010 Loading ...
Oh dear – it does not look like the votes are going the way you would like? As a parent with 3 children who do learn some Te Reo, (which I have no problem with) I would much rather they concentrate their efforts on the core subjects which will be useful as they progress throug life. Maori to me is nothing much more than a hobby subject. (although think NZ History is very important.
Look out Monty – they are rallying the troops.
I am quite happy with Te Reo as an option but totally opposed to it being compulsory.
Every primary school year should have a minimum of 40* hours worth of Maori – compulsory.
Oh yeah, and 40 hours of Chinese (Mandarin) – compulsory.
And something mite nd 2 b dn w th lvl f eng
*Appropriate numbers to be decided.
Monty, they could still be learning the core stuff, with Maori language as another tool to achieve it.
Primary, I assume would end at our old standard four? Isn’t PE compulsory and many kids only get an hour of it a week.
I agree Loota, I assume the point you were making was about txt language being used. I heard about some rubbish schools allowing txt lanugage in essays.
I don’t mind Maori being an option at every level, but I do think that English needs to be taught better.
Mandarin I hear is hard – intonations and stuff.
Adios amigos
Tracey – I hated compulsory P.E. – I even ran slower in the sprints than the obese kids (I was skinny and fit) I think it should be stopped before year 11 – it’s just a waste of time for people who genuinely hate playing sport.
FWIW, not only Maori, but at least one other language in addition to English should be compulsory. Primary school children are at the ideal age for language acquisition (including Mandarin, Mr Spud – when do you think all these Chinese manage to pick it up?) As usual, stupid old monoglot NZ wastes the opportunity
The Chinese hear it from birth. I think childhood is the very best time to be learning foreign languages. But let’s not forget to get English right. Maori is a nice language.
Ah Spud, PE is not supposed to be sport it’s supposed to be physical stuff. Many teachers turn it into sport because that is the extent of their own knowledge of PE.
I believe all primary schools and secondary need to get their students moving, on a daily basis. HEAPS of research shows kids who start the day moving learn better, focus better etc…
Hell 1/2 before school starts, or the first half hour of all school days, can be fun, can involve music etc…
Agreeing with Leopold, I offer the following link with 700 reasons for learning another language, ( http://www.llas.ac.uk/resourcedownloads/6063/700_reasons.pdf) found by googling “reasons for learning a language.”
So, with substantial reasons for acquisition of another language, why choose Maori as first option would be the next question.
Ireland decided on compulsory Irish in school to protect the language. It also offers incentives to gaeltacht areas to keep the language alive. I didn’t hear complaints much, possibly because often sentiment against compulsory Maori language learning includes a racist element which did not apply in Ireland. However, in the North religious and political differences are expressed in anti-Irish language sentiment.
Nelson Mandela fully understood the power of learning English and Afrikaans, as well as his native tongue, as a bridge between peoples. This idea also applies to us Kiwis.
What it is that makes me a Kiwi is in large part the Maori culture. Language carries the ideas of a culture and Maori carries the cultural content of much of our New Zealand culture. Lose the language enough-lose the culture.
People easily learn two or more languages. Europeans commonly do, for example. Our isolation and having English as first language helps keep us monoglot.
Fun stuff sounds alright,
I once had a fat P.E. teacher who used to make us do laps around the field in the blazing sun while he stood there. Another one used to bully the students, especially the male students (female teacher with cactus legs complete with prickles) and used to punish them by making them hang off the gym bars without putting their feet on a rung and if they did she would start the time again.
It has just occured to me that maybe Irish was less objected to because it isn’t the language of another race. Whereas in NZ the racial tension can be off putting. Just a thought.
I was once confused when a bunch of us decided to sing “tu tira mai nga iwi” and this white lady who had Maori kids stopped us and got all precious about it. People have to be able to enjoy the language as well. Given that I learned this song when I was five I really don’t get why it would be a problem to spontaneously sing it.
Mac1 the experience in Ireland was a failure.
The teaching of Gaelic has failed. Children get nearly an hour’s compulsory instruction in it, plus homework, every school day for eleven years of school. At the primary school level, more compulsory time is devoted to Gaelic than to basic numeracy and mathematics, or any other subject except English. The result is that most 18 year-olds can’t maintain a rudimentary conversation in it. Here are some of the reasons.
Less than half the parents say they’d like to see Gaelic used more widely and less than a quarter say they’d wish it to be the main spoken language (see the opinion polls cited above). Obviously then, most children are coming from a poor home environment for the subject.
It’s clear to the older children that Gaelic has little or no value in the real world in general.
It’s very difficult for the teachers to make the language come alive. Only 71,000 adults say they speak Gaelic at least once a day. Of these, roughly a third are the school teachers, a third are in the Gaeltachts, and the remaining third are government translators and miscellaneous
http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_files/article_files/articles/irish.htm
Forcing it on children will kill Maori language even more
When did the compulsory teaching of Gaelic in Ireland come in?
When the Irish became self governing.
The idea was to eliminate English totally at first. Only later did they realise that wasn’t going to happen.
Theres even an extinct Irish version of early anglo-saxon called Yola. Which became distinct from English by the 19th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yola_language
I suppose it’s better than compulsory river dance
‘Forcing it on children will kill Maori language even more’
@Ghostwalker – With all due respect I strongly disagree.
I’m putting up my hand for ‘Strongly agree’. Most people in the rest of the world are bilingual and multilingual, and I feel it is a huge advantage for us to have two languages. It not enables us to understand the target language culture better, but it increases the congnitive capacities of our children, statisics show this. What could be wrong with that? And to those of you out there who think ‘what use is speaking Maori ever gonna be for my kids’; wake up, you live in New Zealand and the more you strengthen our cultures together, plus encourage a feeling of belonging and uniqness in our children, the better that has to be for our country. I really wish I had had the opportunity to learn Maori when I was a kid. Stats show (and I have studdied this) that language learning in children is way more effective than adults. Its compulsory in Germany and many European countries to learn English. Its not killing their languages. Lets do it.
I think we need to define what is compulsory Maori. It pretty much is compulsory at the moment because common words and phrases are built into everyday teaching. Making it ‘compulsory’ in terms of structured lessons could be a backward step by marginalising Maori language into set times.
And like Gaelic, there are just not enough Maori speakers to create a big enough pool of teachers and there won;t be any time soon – just a fact of population dynamics, so no point even considering making it compulsory unless you’re happy to have it taught really badly by unqualified people ie native speakers who lack the ability to teach well, or qualified teachers who lack basic skills in Maori.
Which also demonstrates another similarity to Gaelic: most Maori don’t speak the language to any great level. So it’s a bit of a hard political ask to push it onto the non Maori population when the people we are told who so treasure the language don’t seem to as a whole.
Welsh on the other hand is more of a success but there it had a stronger base and strong nationalistic elements, although I’ve read it is not as strong in the major cities and border areas as it is in mid and West Wales.
@Steely – yeah but they must be doing something right with their languages. English is getting masacred – for me it’s not so much about not learning other languages as it is about getting our own one right as well.
Forgot to add, that in those countries where there is a strong bilingual tradition I suspect it is because there is constant exposure to the other language in everyday life. So many Europeans have good English skills because they are taught in schools plus they are exposed to it in media or to native speakers regulalry. In others there will be two major languages eg Belgium or the former soviet republics.
That’s not the case with Maori. How many non Maori outside teaching and some parts of govt ever come into contact with spontaneously spoken Maori on a daily basis? I regularly hear more Samoan than I do Maori.
I have a german friend, he learned all the way through til the end of high school, but he was never terribly good at it until he lived in English speaking countries.
@spud – this is a common complaint, however if you think back to how the English language was spoken a hundred years ago, and a hundred years before that etc… you will find the same comments from many, especially those of us in a more ‘mature’ agegroup (yourself perhaps excepted??? Just how old are you spud…?). Anyway, languages change, and younger people lead the change. Think also of the impact when, at somepoint in the near future, non native speakers of English will out number native speakers. Just what influence do you think that will have. There are some interesting studies being conducted in this. Don’t worry too much, English is essentially a flexible language. We can still read Chaucer for goodness sake and make out most of it. Thats a pretty incredible feat for a language. Lets jsut make sure we have good English and good language teachers.
There is a huge increase in families speaking Maori in the home. Have a listen to this interview with Pripi Walker on Chris Laidlaws Sunday programme next week. Sure, its not perfect, but the usage of Te Reo is on the increase.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/national/sunday/2010/08/01/piripi_walker
sorry, I meant to say last week, not next week. Duh
I don’t mind slang and other changes to the language, but I get bleeped off at your instead of you’re, and people who don’t know how to write in standard English. I mean if we use German as an example – the German we learn is high German – and that is kind of a Standard German that can be used at German universities (if the person learns enough) and for reading newspapers etc. That knowledge is still required despite their slang and dialects.
It’s great that Maori use is on the up and up. I notice that every Maori language week there is more to see and hear.
And it’s certainly destructive of those peoples confidence who just aren’t good at sport.
Because it’s the language of the native peoples of this country, because our government spent over 100 years trying to get rid of it, because it happens to be an official language and because it happens to be a rather beautiful language.
I have reservations about it being compulsory but it certainly should be available and encouraged. Either way, it’s going to take generations for it to become a mainstream language.
@ steely
Pripi might think that but the overall stats seem to disagree. You’d have to say that the current approach to Maori language is pretty much a disaster.
http://www.socialreport.msd.govt.nz/cultural-identity/maori-language-speakers.html
@insider – I don’t think you could describe the current approach as a disaster, however obviously Nanaia is asking the above question for a reason. It would be interesting to see more up to date statistics don’t you think.
@ steely
Sorry but the number of Maori speaking Maori has dropped over the last 10 years, despite all the money and goodwill invested. If that’s not a disastrous investment, what is?
I also want to have a go at this canard that the “Government banned Maori in schools”.
From my reading of history it didn’t. What it did do was say that English was to be “the language of instruction” in native schools in order for them to receive funding – a bit like today where integrated schools have to follow the curriculum to get funding.
The fact is that Maori language was continually taught as a subject in schools.
I don’t deny that may have had a negative effect on the perceptions of the language but the reality is that most Maori spoke Maori as their first language well into the 20th C – more than 50 years after the Native Schools Act 1867. SO if Maori was banned it had precious little effect on actual use of the language.
The use of English only in native schools was because of pressure from Maori parents at the time, who spoke to their children only in Maori. This combined with a fallacy about children shouldnt have two languages to learn at a young age
( its now known as a good idea).
This was common in other places at the time ( 1920’s on)such as the US Quebec border where immigrant families spoke french at home and only english was allowed in school.
@Draco – agreed
@insider – I don’t know much (no surprises there) but I do know that children were actually punished for speaking Maori and that some parents would only address their kids in English to avoid social problems.
If the language becomes compulsory learning and students are tested on fluency etc, what becomes of them if they fail.
Hang on, can’t fail, well done.
It was the likes of Sir Apirana Ngata who pushed for Maori to not speak Maori in schools. The belief being that this would help the Maori kids to get ahead.
I read an article by the Maori Language Commissioner some time back who stated that government departments spent $400 million a year on promoting the Maori language yet only 18,000 people were fluent in the language. This shows two things. One being that Maori are not that interested in their language and the other that the gummint wastes a LOT of our money.
After all, if the language was really important I would expect that there would be Sunday school classes at every marae in the country where kaumatua would teach the mokopuna te reo and their whakapapa.
Nah.
I think it’s important that we as New Zealanders have a greater knowledge of Maori. It is an official language after all, and to better understand cultural differences etc then it would make sense to learn the language.
However, for it to really work, then I think we would need to work on normallising the language as well – so that kids aren’t just seeing Maori in the classroom. In fact, scratch that, so we ALL see it. Placenames in both English and Maori on signs (for those that aren’t already), stuff like that would be a good start. Also dual names of foodstuffs in supermarkets like they did during Maori Language Week seemed to get a decent response – would that be worth looking into? Just little things like this I think would be a good idea – at least at the start, to get the ball rolling so to speak.
I’m a strongly agree person.
This debate feels awfully like the gay marriage debate. Opponents to allowing gays (like me) to marry cite that it will devalue straight marriage. But surely there is room for both – for it is still ‘marriage’ with all that entails.
Me having equal rights to you does not make you anything less.
Here we are clearly not talking about teaching Maori instead of English – it is about teaching Maori in addition to English. Both languages being cherished and respected. There is room for both. There should be room for both.
Aw Tigger
, I think gay marriage is a great idea 
If two people wuv each other then that’s the most important thing
Firstly – sorry if what I write has been said above – I have read much of it but confess skimmed quite a bit. Heres my 2cents.
Maori language is a taonga – (treasure) – this is the ONLY country where you will find it – its part of our heritage and its part of our culture – its unique and special to US. Irrespective of whether you are maori, pakeha or a migrant/refugee. As such, it deserves a place of importance. Our kids, who are kiwis, actually like learning it and have more respect for it than many of their parents. That in itself tells us something.
I voted strongly agree -BUT – there are snags.
1. There are not enough teachers who are fluent in te reo, and we are not funded to provide appropriate support in both culture (tikanga) or language. There are processes where schools can access some funding to support te reo but schools need to be providing a certain level that is often not easy to provide (training and actual teachers and good resources are the issue here). To clarify though – Schools are required to teach Maori. It just does not happen at an adequate level for the reasons stated above.
2. The NAGs (National Administration Guidelines) actually require schools – all schools – to address Maori language etc
3. The Treaty also requires it
4. Every govt has tried to improve maori achievement and address issues in this area (Ka Hikitia policy is what schools that are mainstream – as in not maori medium – are meant to be working through – but again, great rhetoric but sod all resources to support it)
5. Primary (and ECE) is the appropriate time to learn a language – much research has been written about the benefits for our children to be bilingual – the early this starts then the more likely the brain will soak it up and the better it is for our children in terms of academic learning.
6. Additionally, much research has been completed that also shows maori students achieve at a much higher rate when their culture and language is appropriately acknowledged etc – but with a very large ‘white middle class’ teaching force – many of whom do not have the skills or cultural competence – despite being well meaning, its an area we fail at – and there has been quite a lot of research around this as well. Measures such as Ka Hikitia have tried to address this – but again – no resourcing support to back it up.
This is an important area – and it is much deeper than the argument of ’should all kids be taught Maori’.
In terms of my own – I would much rather my child understand what it is to be a kiwi – to be mindful and respectful of maori language and culture – and to be proud of this aspect of being a kiwi. If more of our kids understood our world in an open and respectful way – the more likely we can be assured that our future is in good hands – not ignorant, rednecked and divisive hands. Furthermore, I would predict if all our kiwi kids understood culture – esp Maori – then the divisions that split our country would begin to heal and disappear.
@Paul – Excellent post, couldn’t have put it better.
I strongly agree. But that’s not to say the aim is for us all to become perfect speakers of Maori. Rather, we would all benefit from the meaningful learning and intercultural understanding that accompanies the process of learning another language.
First of all, learning another language actually supports the development of your first language, because you learn more about how language actually works as a system.
Second, when you learn another language it becomes clear very quickly that it is impossible to separate language from culture. The learning of another language can be a means to discovering more about another culture, the different world views they may have, and just as importantly more about your own cultural identity.
As an example, think about what really lies behind the language of introducing yourself in a mihi in Maori. It’s possible to just learn it in a formulaic kind of way and learn that the word awa means river, maunga means mountain etc and you could also learn how to construct a grammatical sentence, such as my “mountain is taranaki” etc. And that’s of benefit in itself, but the learning goes even further than that if you then ask questions like “what does it say about the perspective/world view of Maori, that you identify yourself with the names of your parents, a mountain and a river in an introduction? What might the purpose of that be?
And when I introduce myself in English (or whatever language your first language is) what sort of language do I use and what does that say about my culture and perspective on the world?
In Japanese, in formal introductions you usually include the name of the company you work for and your job title.
The point I’m making here is that through learning aspects of the language like this, we learn more about what is important to people from cultural backgrounds that are different to our own. It also makes you think about what’s important to you as well. In this case, the language used for introductions is saying a whole lot about what is considered central to defining a person’s identity within a particular culture.
To go one step further: you also have to confront some issues about your own personal and cultural identity as well. For example, I personally don’t feel any connection to a mountain or a river. I was born in Palmerston North, but my parents moved when I was five and I lived in five other cities as a child. So when I’m learning how to do a mihi what do I do? Do I haul the atlas out and find out the name of the closest river and mountain to the place of my birth? To me, that seems a bit fraudulent. I don’t feel comfortable saying that’s part of my identity when it means nothing to me. But that’s MY world view. Maybe for Maori the world view is that the place of your birth is hugely important, even if you only lived there for a week. Maybe… It is part of how you introduce yourself after all… And another question, if that is true, do ALL Maori share that viewpoint?
Back to me again …Do I HAVE to have a river and mountain in my mihi, or could I substitute the river for a concept that I felt better expressed my identity? Also I’m thinking about this issue of how I identify myself in terms of what I want to choose to tell people about myself. But is that the purpose of a mihi? Perhaps the Maori perspective is that a mihi allows the listener to find out certain information about a person, so that I would then need to place less emphasis on what I feel comfortable saying to actually giving some info on what the listener us expecting to find out…
By having to confront these questions as you learn a language, you inevitably think more about what culture actually means and you develop a greater awareness of the limitations of viewing the world from only your own cultural background.
That to me is the true gift that learning another language can bring to person.
I’ll finish this rather long post with a quote from Hone Tuwhare:
“another language opens up a whole new window on the world. It might be small and difficult to see through at first, but it gives you a different perspective, and it might make you realise that your first window could do with a bit of polishing and even enlarging”
I’m going to be Ngati Kumara
And with a name like Spud why wouldn’t ya…
And that probably makes me Ngati Pacman.
Having grown up in NZ i wish that i was more exposed to the Maori language. Living abroad really gives me a sense of admiration for New Zealand. In Australia, indigenous progressive is not even close to where NZ is at. I think firstly, NZ is very fortunate that the Maori language is now being embraced(at 1 point only 42k maori existed). And that the topic of “should Maori language be taught in primary schools” being considered is a great example of how far Maori acknowledgement/recognition has come. Remember that having this uniqueness (Maori Culture) is what separates NZ from any other country in the world. It has a lot to do with where the country (NZ) has come thus far in more ways than you think. Be proud of it and don’t let it slip away. Lose your language means you will lose your culture (uniqueness) identity. Australia to me doesn’t really have an identity where as NZ does. Which makes it the country it is. I guess you don’t see that unless your out looking in.