Don’t normally post things about caucus here but this is going to lead the news so I figure it is ok.
Made it clear in the past that Chris Carter and I were never that close. We argued. West coast snails probably the worst.
But I’ve got to know him pretty well over the last couple of years. We go to pump classes together. The Labour Party and Parliament have been Chris’ life for the last 17 years.
Chris has been under a lot of pressure around the expense issue. He hasn’t found it easy to take that pressure. I haven’t supported him well.
Today he did something incredibly stupid (made stuff up and circulated it to media in a failed attempt to be anonymous) which I think has ended his political career. He has been suspended from our caucus. Quite a few of us who can sometimes be pretty hard had tears in our eyes as we did it.
But as with sport when there is an extremely bad breech of team discipline you are dropped from the team. Our teams decision was unanimous.
Oh, well it should be an exciting race regardless of when they hold it.
What about Annette King for Labour’s next Leader balance deleted wrong side of marginal Trevor
It looks like you had no choice in the matter as it was a matter of principle. I do accept that it still would have been hard to do it though since working with Chris for so long.
Easy decison on a professional level and hard on a personal level and I can only imagine how difficult that would have been.
My one month ban is now well past so here goes with my views on this:
I suspect that’s meant to be offensive. Clare
Shame hes gone as hes doing National a power of good
Sorry, wasn’t supposed to be offensive, I just couldn’t think of a saying that seems more approriate (and historical)
Mind you I have to admit it’ll make the by-election more interesting
Well take care because your next ban will be a long one Trevor
@ Spud – Although I haven’t voted yet, my vote would be aligned to the party rather than the leader specifically.
While a solid leader is important, s/he is nothing unless s/he has a decent team (well, party) behind them. Those of us who follow any team sport know this to be true – just because you have the best player in the world in your team doesn’t mean you’re going to win the World Cup, it’s far more likely that the team that plays AS A TEAM and not a group of individuals will win.
This is a good chance for Labour to show that they are that team in the lead up to the election – not divided by in-house fighting, but standing united.
Trevor, your constant use of censorship does not result in a very democratic and fairly contestable blog.
Learn the rules – tell the truth, don’t abuse. don’t troll. Otherwise go elsewhere and help the average quality of comments here. Trevor
I have been appalled at some of the vicious comments on Facebook and have asked Phil to comment on these personal and nasty attacks on Chris. I think today is very sad and we don’t need to resort to personal attacks instead of commenting on the issue.
I think Ella makes a really important point about how Labour can win the next election. Running a country isn’t about the leader as much as it is about the team. Phil Goff is doing a good job given the circumstances but John Key is a stellar politician – the Nats rely on their leader’s image.
If Labour can frame the election to be about the team though, compared to National’s front bench they’ll have it in the bag.
Good on ya Ella
I think Phil is a stellar politician too, he’s just different
Plus he’s miles ahead of where National were in 2002 with Bill English, when Labour is arguably worse off than National was then.
@9.53 – I don’t know why people have these expectations that anyone can be polling high 18 months after the ditching and then go into panic mode. He has a chance of winning, G
FF !!!
G
Loota said:
Honestly, mate, I haven’t seen anything that’s good about corporate management. So far as the Labour caucus is concerned, its more about basic common sense and teamwork. Sure, one of the team stuffed up big time, acted like a dick, got a bollocking from the ref and the other side lined up a penalty. But you don’t isolate your team mate and leave him out on the wing stewing in the perceived injustice of it all. Not by a long chalk. Rather, appoint someone to go over and keep an eye on him, gee him up and let him know the game ain’t over. Either that or you sub him off the field altogether. As it turns out in this case, he was scorned, he did stuff up again and, this time, has been sent off. Now, thanks to the caucus, we’re a man down.
Just to mix the metaphors, I gotta tell ya, these Parliamentary plonkers wouldn’t last five minutes on my production line, and we’re unionised; it wouldn’t be the suits walking them to the gate, it would be the workers quite happy to do more if only the weak-links would just go away and stop making life difficult. Either they’re going to act like a team or put Phil out of his misery first thing Monday morning and come clean on what they’re really up to.
They also seem to have forgotten who’s boss – its too many tiki-tours around the globe feasting in posh restaurants guzzling booze ticked up on the credit card while trying to look busy until 2014. Its time they were reminded they work for us, remember? Its us who hand out the patronising gratitude, and, when necessary, dispense a firm bollocking.
@BLiP: If they ran a company like they’re running the country right now, on the one front they’d probably be padlocked in their offices by hundreds of livid workers facing the chop. On the other front, an equally livid shareholder revolt.
Yep a production team hates nothing more than having to stay late reworking **** that some incompetent tosspot “team member” is responsible for screwing up in the first place.
And yes, this is the real world ‘where the rubber hits the road’ that Labour is supposed to be representing.
Theres a tui ad in here somewhere…
Blip, your experience of repetitive jobs has no bearing on a complex job such as a MP.
To put it the other way, you wouldnt last 5 min in the labour caucus, as your limited multi tasking would mean nothing would get done , when everything needs to be done.
I have done both, and I can tell you, because they opportunity to screw up is more common with a fast paced complex job doesnt mean someone is a ‘plonker’.
You cant turn even look up from admin type tasks to find a queue of real people with real problems who come to you looking for help.
Good luck with keeping your production line of ‘things’ humming along
Seems to me that CC actually wanted to retire with his travel perks (17yrs) no longer media feed. Like many others he wanted a public debate about PG leadership. The fact is many saw PG as a fall guy for the next election AKA Geoffrey Palmer. The mistake Labor made at the time was panicking and wasting Mike Moore (who had the potential to resurrect the party if used after the election.
As mentioned in this thread many people do not understand the fundamentals of MMP, at least as the electorate reads it. The last national Govt (Shipply) stayed in power one term longer than they should have (the wider electorate expected that Labor had won). The next election both National and NZFirst were decimated (who wants compulsory super? 8%). They had no leadership outdated policies and no ideas. Then HC did the same with Brash (Thank God). It was not so much that we liked their policies (except tax cuts) but the scandals and PC BS were creeping in, and Cullen wasn’t explaining why he was hogging the surpluses. National was the biggest party in this parliament and it was inevitable that Labor would suffer for “clinging desperately” to power. Some more fumbles, the impression of overspending our taxes, no fresh ideas and it should have been all over. But as it happened it was a lot closer than many predicted. Even with HC looking tired (disinterested) and the Govt slow on the GFC (wait to see what the others do – then copy, the killer blow was Key vs Clark. Unfortunately people were starting to tire of the same faces and saw something fresh and charming in Key. While the Polies may have known Key and did not trust him the public did not buy that line, the attack should have focused on those behind Key that the public knew they couldn’t trust. There was even murmurs about how long before English moved on Key and implemented the ‘real’ agenda (remember the tapes). The Nats are feeling confident enough to test the electorate and campaign on asset sales. (great let Nats sell rail for cheap again so labor can buy back for too much)
Cut to the chase – The NZ public sees this as a two term Govt (punish Labor reward Key). It would take a monumental effort from Labor (the team) and a monumental betrayal from Key to win in 2011. Goff cannot beat Key, but labor can. to get real leadership in a clean manner requires Goff to loose and for 2014.
So who to for PM 2014? We will have to wait for their colleges to tell us who they trust and believe in. If they want to win they will have to have some fresh ideas.
Wow a speech like that isn’t helping Labour’s chances in 2011!
Some of us want Labour to try and win next year. Also, what chance does Goff have when people have been painting him as the fall guy from the start. They have done him and the party no favours by not promoting him to the public. If Labour isn’t behind him and trying to help him and the party when then they can hardly blame it all on Goff if things don’t go their way.
If they are just waiting for him fail and not honestly trying to win then woe is NZ
I still believe we can win next year, where’s the fight?!
@Spud
You need to learn the long view
I can’t stand the defeatist attitude of that post.
Its not defeatist, it takes the view that Labour will regain power just not as quickly as people like you (unrealistically) want it to
gwwnz come on go easy mate
(1) In the old days workers used to do one repetitive job. Some of those jobs no doutb still exist. These days however modern workers in modern factories are more likely to: check incoming production orders and plans, organise the delivery of materials to the machine site/between work centres, help set up and load machines, ensure quality assurance requirements are met and paperwork is completed, monitor ongoing process performance, respond to supervisor/management requests for information, attend organisational and quality improvement meetings,…etc. you get the idea.
(2) being an MP is a pretty unique job. I don’t think that many other roles from being an accountant to a medical doctor to a factory supervisor would do anything more than provide a background and a context for learning to be an MP.
(3) Just sit back and watch and learn. That’s what most new MPs do for their first year in, yeah?
(4) Multi-tasking is an illusion. You can only give your attention to one thing at a time. Trying to give it too many things at a time mean that you have no concentration anywhere. Maybe you mean the ability to swap between tasks rapidly which can appear to be multitasking but isn’t really.
As for your comment about keeping production lines humming along. I’m not sure you are really aware of the scope of organisational and technical complexity needed to push out 15,000 iPhones, 40 Lexus RVs or 200 tonnes of milk powder per day.
Sure the MPs have difficulty with this, but its their electorate paid by the hour staff who have to deal this most of the week when their MP is nowhere to be seen.
You’re probably not wrong on all of the above. Labour needs to go from 31% in the polls to 41% in the poll which matters. Is it an unsurmountable challenge? No. But as you stated, a very difficult one. One which will rely on the party at least as much as the Parliamentarians.
Aw, Loota,
, what is it with all these doomsayers 
Fight fight fight! 
I’m not giving up even if the rest of you want to weep into your whiskey!
Again, I recommend that people put some numbers in the official MMP calculator that I linked to up-thread:
http://www.elections.org.nz/calculator/index.html
I generously gave National 47% (which means almost no loss of support, for a whole year – very tough). I added 2% for ACT. And Peter Dunne retired, or lost his seat – which he will.
National plus ACT got 60 seats, out of 123. NOT a majority. I expect National would do a deal with Winston or the Maori Party, and hold on, but it’s not the second term the Right dream of, is it? They would be much worse off than they are now, the “cut and sell” agenda would be finished, and the knives would be out for Key.
The idea that the election is ‘over’ is either chronic ignorance, or deliberate misinformation.
Politics 101: Learn. To. Count.
Ok what he did and the way he went about it was pretty dumb BUT does that mean the message hes saying is wrong?
Should Labour ignore what hes saying?
Oh I think it’s safe to say that no one could possibly ignore Chris Carter at the moment!
Goff hasn’t done anything wrong and doesn’t deserve this.
Spud – the guy sits at the bottom of the polls – that is doing something wrong. At the very least it’s not a good thing. It’s sad that small points like that need to be pointed out to goff fans (both of them).
I don’t think the polls reflect his competence as leader. He hasn’t done anything wrong. I do agree that it’s not a good thing, you’d think the public would have better taste
G 
FF 2 
11 !!!!!!!
It doesn’t need to be pointed out, I already know his poll position, it doesn’t mean that I’m all scared and dooming about it
p.s. Mallard for cabinet!
A lot can happen between now and the election. The fickle voting is swung often by public perceptions and definitely media pressure.
Labour needs some bright boys and girls to organise. Exposing myths in plain language as well the homilies pumped out by the NACT and BRT resources.
Phil is honest but low key. He will have to work hard to capture public imagination and show some hard hitting rebel rousing flair.
Annette is a good joker too but well known.
If she has the energy to stir up the woman’s lobby they could desert their swing voting ne’er do well partners and sneak in a blow for NZ in the secrecy of the ballot box.
The mindless term “Nanny state ” repeated incessantly by Nact, the press and commentators saw the term become common currency to Labours disadvantage.
Nact has more direction of people than Labour ever did in the last three terms yet little comment on that gets repeated.
You cannot rely on media to do it for you as we know who they are controlled by.
Opportunism to hit messages home needs good resources and planning.
CC as a selfish extravagant consumer of privileges exposed his lack of commitment to the cause will continue to dog Labour.
English’s gross stripping of expenses is nearly forgotten. It must not be !
I liked King in the house on Tuesday
@ Spud -
Not so much defeatist as I was trying to point out -
a) National got the most seats in 2005 but lost to the left block. There is a backlash to taking power without a majority of seats as Shiply/Peters found out. Its just a pattern I’ve noticed. So far Labor has done well setting themselves up as a new team, same principals as Clark without allowing her memory to cast a huge shadow over the party (Well done to HC and MC for allowing this, unlike Douglas/Prebble).
b) If we have 3 Leaders debates Goff vs Key, then key will win the debate even if his points are dismantled point by point. In the Clark v Key people had just switched off listening to HC, and bought deliberate (obvious) lies and smiles off Key. Don’t ask me why I didn’t get it because he reminded me of a two faced liar. If labor can get into a team vs team, attack Tolley, Bennet, English, Brownlee, Joyce, etc then we can get enough votes, not for a victory but a coalition of the left. And do this in public not just in the house.
Goff can be a good manager, Key is a popular Leader.
c) How about some big idea eg WFF,Student Loans,Tax Cut? We can already see asset sales and ERA being tested, (and Nact want this to be kept quiet), the Super city is unpopular, but will be set in 2011 (could tweak – Maori seats? More local power?), How bout Govt contracts for NZ firms (Rail) or large employing infrastructure.
GWWNZ said:
You appear to have confused the machinery of production with the labour required to make it work. Easy enough mistake to make if the heaviest item in your tool bag is a Blackberry.
I’m sorry you see no place for factory workers in the Labour caucus. I guess, with our limited multi-tasking abilities, we’ll just shuffle from side to side clutching our cloth caps while waiting at the door to the electorate office for our betters to do “everything”.
@Jeremy, factually incorrect:
The 2005 result for the two biggest parties was:
Labour 50 seats
National 48 seats
(remove spaces) www . electionresults . org . nz / electionresults_2005 / partystatus . html
@Jeremy – point b, (sigh my life has come to this?
answering RA at 4:44am 
)
It’s so bizzare that you lot are all furthering the tory created lies about Goff!
Putting down Goff and giving oxygen to this isn’t helping anyone. 
p.s. I don’t share the same view that Goff can’t cut it.
@BLiP –
I think you could do it 
@Phil Lyth – that was a scary election.
With a happy ending 
Blip. Thanks for your response, however you were the one saying MPs were plonkers and wouldnt last on your repetitive production line. Of course some people want a job that is predictable and others want something new of different every day.
While I doubt these days some one could come from many years as factory worker straight to the labour caucus, many have done similar jobs as part of a variety of work.
Phil Goff worked on a freezing works chain, I understand . many other labour Mps would have done a variety of jobs as well.
In your comments I detect a sort of hubris, common in males in their 30s-40s, where they have low tolerance of others mistakes ( they forget they too started out without all the answers). Can somebody really be marched to the factory gate by their co workers in this day and age. Of course if there is a culture of ‘my way or the highway’ perhaps some use this as a sort of workplace bullying. I hope this is not how it is .
Factory work places are just as clicky, political and factional as any other place. Perhaps more so.
For a sad cacaus – You dont seem to be holding back on the comments about Carters ’stability’.
You moved on pretty quickly.
Well Goff and labour did pretty well for the Mt Albert bye election. They improved on the general election result. Even when national ditched their normal unknown candidate and went for a ’star’. Who would have thought that result based on the ‘polls’.
When Key is got plenty of face time on TV and radio of course he will rate higher. That he tells lies and is shameless about being two faced on many issues will eventually catch up with him. Goff doesnt have any ‘credibility’ problems to overcome like Key has accumulated
@Loota – I hate factions too, especially when someone is being left out
@chris they are probably trying to cut him some slack.
@Ghost – he he he – best bielection ever – Lee provided hours of fun
I saw Goff on Q&A this morning, I was so proud of him
@ Spud – Yeah, I saw him on it this morning too, thought he did a good job
I just think we need to see more of him in the media generally – from what I remember in the last couple of elections, we would see Brash/Key constantly in the media voicing opinions etc. Didn’t make for particularly pleasant viewing I have to say, but it really got their profiles up, which IMO Mr Goff needs to do a bit. But hey, there’s still time 
Exactly, get his profile up.
2005 election was scary though
Ugh, I know, I remember my formteacher at the time (who was a hardcore Labour supporter) was going “That is too close, we’ll be having another election within a year” – he wasn’t wrong often, but thank god he was on that particular subject
There are few things harder than having to dump someone from an organisation when they have been active and committed to the cause, but have done something dreadfully stupid. I’ve done it and it makes you feel awful.
Meanwhile, over at Kiwiblog, the right are enjoying themselves. They have incredibly short memories……never heard of Richard Worth, apparently.
At least there is one silver lining – this could result in the return to Parliament of Leila Harre. That should get DPF’s knickers in an uproar.
Laila Harre getting DPF’s knickers in an uproar.
Thanks for the imagery.