Green Party co-leader Russel Norman should be congratulated on successfully winning the game of name recognition.
When Dr Norman dangled the Tibetan flag in front of the visiting Chinese Vice-President Xi Jinping, repeating the words “freedom for Tibet, freedom for the people of Tibet”, wide debate instantly raged within the Chinese community in New Zealand.
Chinese community leaders demanded an apology from the Greens co-leader. Jerry Yang, editor-in-chief of Auckland-based United Chinese Press (published in both Chinese and English) said Dr Norman should apologise for abusing his position as an MP and stretching the boundaries of freedom of expression.
Based on the take of the opinion leaders there are two approaches to help us understand the relevant issues – a selfish approach and conversely, an open approach.
For some, they care more about the living standard and well-being of ordinary New Zealanders than the Dalai Lama, who lives thousands of miles away on the other side of the world. In that regard, how much damage has been done to our relationship with China, our second largest trading partner, due to Dr Norman’s actions remains to be assessed.
For the others, the real essence of human rights and freedom of speech should be argued.
In that vein, when National MP and Minister for Ethnic Affairs Hon Pansy Wong expressed her view in the Chinese media that Dr Norman’s actions were disgraceful, it struck a chord among the Kiwi-Chinese community.
“Freedom for Tibet, freedom for the people of Tibet”.
To understand this politically-laden slogan, there are at least three intrinsic issues that need to be evaluated.
Firstly, does Dr Norman mean free Tibet from the People’s Republic of China?
China established what is now known as Tibetan Autonomous Region in the early 1950s, which put an end to the notoriously cruel system of serfdom on Tibet.
There are two versions of the Dalai Lama. For those of his followers his Holiness is a saint. For others, he is viewed as the leader who supported a system of slavery in Tibet which the Chinese authorities put an end to in the 1950s.
What Westerners do not know, or do not want to know, as argued by the other party, is what level of cruelty the Theocratic Serfdom under Dalai Lama had to offer. An exhibition in New Lynn in 2009 displayed:
• Tibetan Lamaism instruments for worship ceremony made by human parts including human skin drum and a necklace made of finger bones,
• A “gandong” (a flute made of human leg bone)
• Skin from serfs (including children) for religious purpose
• Serf’s eyes gouged out for punishment
Or when Dr Norman says ‘Free Tibet’, does he mean to say free Tibet from the Dalai Lama? The Dalai Lama was both a religious and political leader that ruled the region with great influence over its entire people – is this who the Tibetan people need freeing from?
Thirdly and closely related to the second part, free Tibet from which Dalai Lama? The Dalai Lama Dr Norman so cared about is “His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama” which means, literally, there were 13 such chief monks before the current one who all as leaders of both politics and religion were grand owners of serfs.
In fact according to statistics in the early years of the 17th century Qing Dynasty the serf owners, nobles and the upper-temple monks made up of less than 5% of the population but occupied and owned all Tibet’s farmland, pastures, forests, mountains, livestock and rivers as well as the serfs.
Wikipedia explains the origin of the title of Dalai Lama as such:
“in 1578 the Mongol ruler Alan Khan bestowed the title Dalai Lama on Sonam Gyatso. The title was later applied retrospectively to the two predecessors on his reincarnation line, Gendun Drup and Gendun Gyatso. Gendun Gyatso was also Sonam Gyato’s predecessor as abbot of Drepung monastery…”
And the relationship between Tibetans and the Han Chinese dated back as early as the Tang dynasty from the 7th to the 10th century A.D.
We don’t know how accurate the history is but the history is complicated enough for us to appreciate that the Tibetan issue is not as simple as what Dr Norman tried to chant.
The problem Dr Norman has – as argued by the Chinese community here in New Zealand – is that he wanted to teach the visiting Chinese leader a lesson but without understanding the history of the region.
Dr Norman may believe that his supporters don’t care about history. It is true that for too long many Kiwis were exposed to only one side of the story.
And sometimes it is painful to see that some of Dr Norman’s supporters have just enjoyed sticking to the one sided story and could not be bothered to look at the other side. Indeed it is sometimes difficult to even initiate a quality debate on sensitive issues such as that of Tibet.
Prejudice originated from ignorance and ignorance often enhances prejudice. In that vein Dr Norman’s action has made freedom of speech an oxymoron.
If New Zealand as a country is an open court, in the name of justice or for the sake of Buddhism – a religion Dalai Lama represents – at least we can agree that it is warranted that we hear what the other party or parties have to say on this issue.
Human rights and freedom of speech are about truth and should not be calculated for instant media exposure.
More information: www.huo.co.nz
http://politics.skykiwi.com/ssxw/2010-07-08/104460.shtml
To michaeljsavage and Stuard
Up to now, we can see democracy becomes brutal violance of majority upon minority in this senario. Hopefully you still can argue or debate with your heart than with your gene.
Can you use some solid proof to prove Raymond was making wrong presentation before you guys blackmail him.
Give him so called free speech.
By the way, every political party are obliged to set their MPs proportional to the population.
Chinese should go back to China, this is not a debate.
RW – what on gods good earth is ‘mouthwater’ … if you consider being pro a totalitarian government that actively seeks domination for no ethos other than just ‘power’ and cultural “lebensraum” … then i think it doesnt really matter whether you work here and pay taxes. I dont want your rabid mindless chinese nationalism in my country.
I have that right – and so does every other genuine New Zealander.
You lot are digging your own graves. Every person in the chinese community with any ‘pull’ should be reading this thread and realising they have a problem on their hands.
Don’t be hypocritical! Mr.michaeljsavage, you know how much you know about Chinese cultures, history, Lao Tze and Confucian Thoughts. Are these books still looking brand new in your bookshelf? Are they really there? OK, trust you. Find them out, pick up some points, disscuse with others and show your enjoyment.
Really enjoy! Thanks a lot.
@-Richard
see my lastest post in chinese, dun hv to waste ur emotion on these as I just realised yesterday. he’s paid to downgrade this discussion. Just talk to someone else.
@-Charles
see my above
Richard W – take it or leave it – wee liam – had to resort to posting a comment in chinese yesterday …. he is scared of the truth.
Much like his ethnic homeland.
I think liam may be on an embassy payroll – subverting the nz labour movement. Its just one of many hypotheses
They need to send him back to english classes though.
hoo flung dung …. and other rude japanese words…
michaeljsavage says:
July 8, 2010 at 11:00 am
RW – what on gods good earth is ‘mouthwater’ … if you consider being pro a totalitarian government that actively seeks domination for no ethos other than just ‘power’ and cultural “lebensraum” … then i think it doesnt really matter whether you work here and pay taxes. I dont want your rabid mindless chinese nationalism in my country.
I have that right – and so does every other genuine New Zealander.
You lot are digging your own graves. Every person in the chinese community with any ‘pull’ should be reading this thread and realising they have a problem on their hands.
Hey, are you threatening all New Zealand Chinese? Are you trying to represent all NZers? Be sane!
Hey liam – are you operating a communist cell designed to spread propaganda out of Auntie Fongs Vege shop in downtown invercargill??
Your sentence constructions are hilarious – I’ve been passing around links for others to have a good laugh.
I know – you run the office for Raymond Huo dont you.
If I say Russel Norman is a bully, that is an opinion. But Russel was within 2 metres from state guest is truth.
Opinion is not always truth.
China is not as same democratic as New Zealand. That is true. Does that constitute a right for Russel to be a bully, or Stuard and michaeljsavage as a blackmailer.
Charlie … old son … do you know what blackmail is – it doesnt apply in this instance.
Your ethnic homeland – corrupt and vicious as it is – blackmails the rest of the world – “don question us on human rights – or we don trade with you …”
The only reason the baby milkpowder scam got exposed and dealt with, is that it got found out – otherwise the Chinee government would have turned a blind eye (whats a few dead babies after all). The whole of china is one big corrupt ‘cross my palm with silver’ enterprise.
Everyones on the take in china – and what concerns me – is that after viewing what you lot are saying on this blog – and ray huo – you may bring this perverted “dodgy trader” approach to this country.
Russel Norman a bully – one man against chinese security men waving nothing more than a flag! gimme a break sherlock!
He was a hero – and i applaud him. Your ethnic homeland needs a good whack across its face for its nasty little system and its bullying ways.
Moderators should consider closing any further comment on this topic. The content now is becoming too personal and offensive, and well beyond the brief of the original blogger.
If moderators do close this off – it will constitute an attempt to stem a flow of opinion that is in fact very very enlightening for many people in this nation. The content is determined by reactions of others – its very revealing and should be left to stand.
The blogger may have had a ‘brief’ but he has unleashed a firestorm and it needs to be seen as it really is.
We dont live in china – the labour movement should be about openness not deceit and coverups by implication or otherwise.
to michaeljsavage
Do you get problem with your mind? Bullying is not just beating up somebody else. abusive language is not a good debate.Use your head if you still have one.
You guys threaten raymond, jorpdizing what was making, personal attack just because he spoke out something which doesn’t agree with your whites opinions.
By the way, have you ever been to China while you make such great evlized picture about it. Look around the Chinese around you, are they alike what you have thought about China?
Offensive warning Trevor
Charles
Just let it go
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Charles and fieldwest …. let me address your pidgin english concerns …
- We dont live in china – ray huo opened his big gob and shoved his foot in it – now he suffers the consequences … no communist party to cover up and suppress media here …
- Fieldwest – your post is poorly worded – but you need to realise that all the offensiveness started on this thread from the chinese contributors side – not me
If i was in china – living there – i wouldnt express my opinions as you are expressing yours. You folk are abusing our freedoms and our relaxed culture. What you have now proved to me – is i will be taking careful note of the activities of your ethnic community from now on.
I dont think you can be trusted. You dont have any demonstrated loyalty to NZ. We appear to be a meal ticked – and an outpost of chinese colonial imperialism.
Use-em up – spit em out … thats the chinese government way..
or thats how you all make it look.
think about it
Offensive deleted Trevor
Telling this man is _not_ going to be enough. Are you listening, Phil Goff? You need to cut him loose, or Labour will suffer the inevitable consequences of not disassociating itself strongly from this Chinese totalitarian fifth column in New Zealand.
Make no mistake we will be watching. I am a longtime Labour supporter but I am not a blind supporter. I don’t suppose I am the only one. If you act ineffectually towards this kind of evil in our country then there will be _political_ consequences.
I have to post the following again!!! Why there is always someone coming out to mix up some concepts? Are you doing this on purpose to mislead readers???
Richard W. says:
July 8, 2010 at 10:26 am
hey, michaeljsavage, come on, don’t mix up the concepts- Chinese, China, New Zealand Chinese Communities, and Chinese Government!!! I think what Raymond, as an NZ MP, undoubtedly can represent most of New Zealand Chinese and of course serve our New Zealanders. However, the NZ Chinese’s viewpoints or values are same as that of most Chinese all over the world. This is NOT an excuse for you to say “Raymond Huo is a NZ politician – he isnt a member (i hope) of the Chinese Government – nor is he paid by the chinese government.”
Raymond has nothing to do with the Chinese Government!!! Be responsible for what you said.
Offensive stop it Trevor
Stuart, evil? Really, man you need to chillax. This discussion and the expression of the views in this thread are about freedom, the kind denied in China. I would rather people speak out so we know how they think/feel so we can address it, and maybe effect change, than have some kind of xenophobic policy of denouncing something that looks like something that is evil (doesnt mean it is evil of itself). This thread needs to die… and here I am dragging it back to the top
argggggggggggggggggggggggggggh
Fieldwest … the celestial kingdom invented xenophobia – they’ve been practicing the middle kingdom mentality for centuries. You and other chinese contributors have demonstrated this beautifully. I can only thank you all for your kind participation in this nice neat little expose of what appears to be the rotten underbelly of chinese culture.
Balance deleted Offensive and racist Warning Trevor
Sir, you do no service tot he memory of Mickey Savage. This thread has brought out some pretty ugly aspects of a few peoples personalities regardless of colour or ethnicity or culture.
I think stuart is using the term ‘evil’ in its broadest sense as in “lesser of two evils…” Cant blame him though – the chinese brigade on here have used terms such as evil liberally – including a new word “evilising” … its appeared several times so far.
Stuart is quite right. He’s also only expressing his open viewpoint. Its the chinese contributors here who have escalated it.
Its fascinating to sit back and watch it unfold.
Very educational.
IN fact poor stuart has been described as almost akin to the anti christ by the chinese contributors (in so many poorly constructed words and sentences…).
I have my view tracey and you have yours. Happen to think MJS was a great man and your opinion doesnt alter my view at all – although you are welcome to it.
Its essential to get beyond the platitudes and one liners with this issue – and i think that has been achieved nicely.
The chinese contributors have done this to themselves. No one forced them to comment.
Not a chat room deleted Trevor
Not a chat room deleted Trevor
A general warning. Comments on this post have descended below a standard acceptable to the moderation team. Anything that even vaguely attacks someone else, or does not contain new material, will be deleted Trevor
Deleted Trevor
Raymond seems confused. This is the position of the Chinese Government not the New Zealand Labour Party. And however ill mannered it may appear to the Chinese Government robust protest is as Kiwi as Marmite and jandals.
Amen John – preach it. That is the nub of the matter.
Thats our culture – thats our fair and reasonable expectation. Sums it up nicely.
Offensive Trevor
Green tara.
Can you provide me with evidence that his in exile government is democratically elected?
YT
Not chat room Trevor
You and i are on two sides of a yawning chasm … there is no point in debate between us…
YT – can you provide evidence that the Chinese Government is democratically elected?
@-John Chapman
I take your view that such a protest is not a big deal in NZ and most other western countries. I agree.
But, It doesn’t mean people are standing in other’s position if any of us points out that the way Dr. Norman acted/protested can be seen as an unfriendly sign to many normal chinese. Actually, if such suggestion helps improve the way of communication(no matter it’s protest, talk or even differnt way of shaking hands) between two countries, I think whoever made the suggestion is trying to bring potential benefits to both sides. Wouldn’t you agree?
Not a chat room New issues only Trevor
And of course what about “unfriendly signs” to ordinary Kiwis …. lots of Chinese living here including an MP – badmouthing NZ’s tradition of free speech by association with Russel Norman (my hero) and then supporting an obviously totalitarian regime … how does that look.
You see – this is our country – not china – its new zealand – for new zealanders. The fact you are chinese matters not a jot – if you live here – its new zealand. Simple really
@-John Chapman
Really would like to see your view on my comments, as I reckon this is the message that I’d like to pass to you and others
Russel Norman exercised his right to protest – heavy handed security goons employed by the Chinese Government intervened and manhandled him … thats what made it look “unfriendly”…
Not chat room Trevor
…
Banned Trevor
Congratulations Mr Huo -on both commiting political suicide and alienating yourself from the populace.
You have do the voters of NZ a favor.
My only regret is that the Labour party must suffer as a consequence.
Nothing new Deleted Trevor
Offensive comment deleted Trevor
Liam,
Like some of the posters on this thread I am a relative new arrival to New Zealand. I’m an American by birth. That doesn’t mean that the very core of my being is threatened when the US Government is at times quite rightly criticized for its behaviour towards its own people and in foreign policy. Occasionally the Chinese Government gets it wrong too. Criticism of the Chinese Government is not a criticism of the Chinese people unless they make a choice to take it that way. Criticism of government is something we in the west have taken for granted and enjoy. Hopefully the Chinese people in our community will come to enjoy that freedom too.
Russel Norman exercised his right to protest – heavy handed security goons employed by the Chinese Government intervened and manhandled him … thats what made it look “unfriendly”…
That’s certainly not what the video showed.
In any case according to a Herald poll, 79% of New Zealanders thought Norman overstepped the mark, and that Norman was at fault.
Most commentators in the main newspaper the New Zealand Herald said the same.
So Raymond’s commentary is in fact right in line with mainstream NZ public opinion.
And his position that Tibet is a wholly legitimate part of China is hardly a radical notion. Afterall it is the position of the New Zealand government, the Labour Party, the Australian and US governments and in fact all nations of the world, Western ones included.
So perhaps MichaelJSavage – it is you who is out of step with everyone else.
“Occasionally the Chinese Government gets it wrong too. Criticism of the Chinese Government is not a criticism of the Chinese people unless they make a choice to take it that way.”
Mr Chapman: I’m sure Americans would be outraged if members of the Chinese government in China supported radical Hispanic seccessionist movements in respect of Texas, California, and New Mexico, and further the President Hu met with the leaders of such a movement on a regular basis.
In fact my guess would be the American reaction would be decidedly more hostile than the Chinese one.
Criticising a nations foreign policy or human rights record is one thing.
But when you question that nations territorial integrity then that unites all people of all political persuasions in outrage.
The Chinese position on Tibet is not a communist party position. It is in fact the position of Chinese people of all different political persuasions, including the Chinese people in Taiwan.
In fact Taiwan claims that not only is Tibet part of China, but that all of Mongolia should be as well.