I had to take a little bit of time to consider whether or not I was over-reacting to his ‘darkies’ comment. I knew that there would be a suggestion from the general public that our country has just become far to PC and overly sensitive and I didn’t want to jump the gun on it but…after thinking about it – Andy Haden you made a huge mistake and it’s not ok.
I don’t know what the general expectation is from the public but if they think us PI’s should just smile and laugh when we are called ‘darky’, ‘booga’, ‘coconut’ – then sorry but in this instance maybe some of us don’t don’t feel like being the ‘jovial’ Pacific Islanders.
There is of course friendly banter that takes place amongst PI and with non-PI friends and family – but that only works when there is a trust between those involved in the exchange. If the context isn’t right and/ or the person isn’t trusted, then it quickly becomes patronising and offensive. Andy Haden might have a few close PI mates that he can use terms like ‘darkies’ with – they probably don’t have a problem with it. But the problem when you use a term like this publicly, is that the rest of us don’t have a friendship/ relationship with you and therefore our suspicions are aroused immediately and offence is naturally taken.
The expectation from some corners that Andy Haden lose his position as Ambassador were fair. He demonstrated an inability to live up to fairly reasonable expectations when he used a term which in this day and age, is unacceptable. It’s not just about offending a fairly large group of people in NZ but its also about his wisdom with regards to knowing what is appropriate and what is not.
His comment wasn’t appropriate.
He’s a fool, my rugby loving freinds regard him with contempt.
You’re right Carmel. Amongst friends it is probably OK. It is a bit like swearing at someone. It is at whom and whether there was intent to harm that matters.
I agree with this post, but please correct the spelling of Haden’s name.
Spelling corrected. By the way – the word ‘Darkies’ is not one I have ever used in private circles whilst joking with friends nor can I recall any friend or family member using it…its just not a word that we’d even think of using. The last time I recall this word being used is when Paul Homes called Kofi Annan a ‘checky darky’…that didn’t go down well did it – infact Tongan poet Karlo Mila Schaff even wrote a poem about that little incident.
Spelling not corrected.
Unfortunately you might be surprised how often that term and worse is used in Canterbury and the rest of NZ. I lived in Christchurch for 5 years and flatted with a Maori guy and another bloke of Indian descent.
Both were targets of racist comments, it was brought into sharp focus when we were looking for a flat and we wondered what the heavily fortified neighbor was about. It was a local white supremacist gang …..we were then chased down the road and threatened. It was the mid 90s but I don’t think much has changed.
My initial reaction was that Hadens use of the term “darky” was satirical; to highlight the racism. Rasicm is alive and well in NZ and this debate should probably widen to that, in my experience that is to uncomfortable for most.
If you’ve spent much time in rugby cultural circles, you’ll know that this sort of comment (and others much worse) are all too common.
This being so, it could be argued that Haden is a ‘good ambassador’ for NZ rugby as he is indeed a genuine representative of that culture.
Perhaps the real issue may be more about the appropriateness of this type of ‘rugby culture’ in modern New Zealand, rather than Haden’s appropriateness as an ambassador?
And it was pretty clear on Friday that Key expected Haden to resign (unrealistic for those who know him) or for McCully to sack him (unrealistic for those who know him)
I wonder if Haden is one of Keys sleeping partners in his ‘blind trust’. Why the effort to keep him on. Haden has only been in the ‘unpaid’ job for a month – probably gets quite high expenses, which is all Andy needs to cover while doing his other business interests.
Racism is still rife and unfortunately our country struggles to discuss it reasonably. One of the most saddening encounters I’ve had over the past few years was with an African man (my neighbour) who stood for the local body elections in 2007. He took his son along with him when he went door knocking for the first time. Later he told the rest of us (his team) that he’d had numerous doors slammed in his face and a number of people tell him to go back to his own country. None of us experienced the disrespect that he had to endure with his son looking on (even me as a PI)…I was disgusted. Sometimes when you let people get away with the small things i.e. using words like ‘darkies’ – it just gives them and others license to take their views to further extremes.
Out of interest Trevor, would you have sacked Haden if you were still RWC Minister?
Would Haden have been picked in the first place is another question?
I had forgotten he was a Cavalier, your right he should have never been picked in the first place. Being part of a team that breaks an embargo on sporting contact during South Africa’s apartheid era for moneys pretty low.
Getting upset about darky nigger etc. just shows you have a deep seated inferiority complex. I’m euro and I could not care less if i’m called a white whatever. People who go name calling based on race are idiots and those who get upset about it are even stupider.
jon, please go away and get a basic understanding of race-based discrimination and its history before you come here to comment. It will stop you appearing so ignorant.
DPF I wouldn’t have appointed him. The only surprise is that it has taken three weeks for there to be a problem. I actually like Andy and in the relatively small amount of time we have spent together have enjoyed debating issues. But doesn’t take much to know that a problem was inevitable and it could divert focus from the business development he was meant to lead. There are of course plenty of alternatives.
I had to chuckle when McCully said haden hadnt realised he would be in the spotlight as an ambassador. I hope he doesnt charge his clients much for his advice then!
Carmel: “There is of course friendly banter that takes place amongst PI and with non-PI friends and family – but that only works when there is a trust between those involved in the exchange. If the context isn’t right and/ or the person isn’t trusted, then it quickly becomes patronising and offensive”
So true. The same goes for the interaction between Maori & Non Maori.
You only need to go into a work place where a good proportion of the staff are Maori or Pacific Island and you soon pick up that banter and taking the mickey out of oneself and others is the norm.
But there is a time & a place for this.
What may be okay at work or in the locker room is not necessarily okay on national television.
Andy Haden needs to adapt his language according to his audience.
As a Rugby World Cup Ambassador and after having made a very good living out of relationship networking (isn’t he the head of a sporting talent agency) he should at least have this skill down pact.
I personally think he should have been asked to resign. He should know better. After all these years, this should not be a lesson he needs to learn.
Pat re “Perhaps the real issue may be more about the appropriateness of this type of ‘rugby culture’ in modern New Zealand, rather than Haden’s appropriateness as an ambassador?”
I think in the context of things in terms of Andy Haden being a rugby ambassador that the two should be synonymous. But yes, rugby culture has a lot to answer for in this country.
Oh and for the record, I’m not Maori or Pacific Island and nor am I rugby fan!
@ Rebecca
I think you hit the nail on the head there,
Do I have a problem with being called a darkie by my mates in social situations? Absolutely not. My friends and I often joke about about racial stereotypes,(Think fish n chips, coconuts ect.)
Having said that I would never use such terms publicly or even privately to an older member of my whanau.
Do I think it is wrong for a national spokesman and a supposed role model to make such remarks? Absolutely not, I was offended both as a Maori and as a Crusaders fan!
Andy Haden save your own dignity and step down!
we were all horrified – its just not appropriate for a public figure on public tv. What came across was bigotry rather than the message he was ‘trying’ to get across that there may or may not be a quota on players of different ethnic backgrounds (also unacceptable)
Even if darkie is okay with his mates, surely he could’ve had a bit of medi nous and kept away from the word.
“Horrified” is probably not how I would describe it – more that the guy should just have exercised a bit of common sense and minded his ‘media manners’.
There are loads and loads and loads of derogatory terms that can used day in and day out in this country and for the most part, are often used in the right way, in the right environment and at the right time.
Andy Haden’s use of such words may have been said in the right way, but it was most certainly not said in the right environment or at the right time.
He should have known better.
And knowing when to mind your manners is definitely not PC gone overboard. I just don’t understand how this is not a sackable offense given his role in rugby?
Some things are just not the kind of stuff you say on national television….or in the case of John Key’s Tiananmen Square comment (see Lianne Dalzel’s post from a couple of months back), when you are in China on official State business!
Seems even in the rugby community people are not happy with Mr Haden
http://www.3news.co.nz/Andy-Haden-should-have-been-sacked—blog/tabid/1144/articleID/158472/Default.aspx#top
@Tamati 3.54pm.
But its OK to refer to some one as a rice muncher.
@Emma
I don’t think Haydens use was one around his own racism, but its use was to highlight the “attitude” and racism of the institution he was talking about. It is on the edge to create debate; if he had produced some evidence then I suggest that his status would be one of hero not villain.
I don’t think he should be an Ambassador, but for a better reason than this – Cavaliers. I don’t think his motives of debate were pure and it was for ratings, this is where his defense falls over.
I have used the word darkie but only with my multi-ethnic background mates, I cant write what they call me.
Yeah rice muncher is fine, as long as they stay off our dairy farms!
Tamati and therein lies the rub.
Don’t complain and feign offence when other races pick up terms that you use in general everyday conversation. You set the standard by which your colloquialisms and nicknames are used. If your standards are low then expect that back.
I wouldn’t get upset if I was called a “lightie” I don’t see what the problem is…
It seems to be perfectly acceptable for me to be referred to as a “white pig” (which I understand is the translation for Pakeha) but Hadon cannot refer to someone as dark..?
He didn’t pre-fix the word with a derogatory stereotype…
I suggest everyone go and read Section 14 of the Bill of Rights…
@ Cactus Kate
I’m not offend about what people call me per se (trust me I’ve been called much worse), It’s more about who said it.
If the bloke in the pub calls me a darkie then I’d shrug it off, but when an ambassador for New Zealand biggest sporting event launches into a racist rant, I take offence.
Yes there is a double standard, and I certainly don’t apologise for it. There are simple some positions in our society where people must be whiter than white. (Excuse the pun)
To top it off he bagged my favourite rugby team!
It might also do us all well to investigate the actual issue too – if the crusaders have a racial quota, well then that should be discussed and dealt with too.
@ tamati you cant have it both ways. Harawera and his ” white mofos ” comment is ok but Andy Haden says “Darkies” and the world get’s its panties in a bunch.
“Yeah rice muncher is fine, as long as they stay off our dairy farms”
Then one might say that Darky or Kumara muncher is fine as long as they are not on the sea bed and foreshore.
@ Rebecca. It doesn’t matter how the Crusaders pick the team, they are the most succesful team in the super rugby league, the no more than three theory has already been disproved, but its OK to pick the Maori rugby team.
This also has the side effect of reinforcing the ‘one-eyed Cantab’ stereotype – a justified stereotype from my own experiences living in ChCh (unwillingly) in the 2nd half of the 1990s. Some things don’t seem to have changed much since Foreskin’s Lament. Still, context and perspective are important.
To the best of my knowledge the other teams have no known racial quotas.
Jeremy Harris – of course he is perfectly entitled to his freedom of speech, doesnt mean he has to be an Ambassador appointed by the NZ Government though. Frankly I get sick of free speech rolled out as some kind of catch-all argument.
YES he can say what he likes AND live with the consequences. The guy is an agent/representative for celebrities and sports people… people surely arent saying he is naive?
DeepRed – I have a lot of family and friends in Canterbury. In April I was at a family/friends gathering. All of those who expressed an opinion are of the mind that PI’s are not thinking players, that is the problem with the Chiefs and the Blues.
That people choose to denigrate themselves Cactus is not actually an invitation for others to do so. Being called a “whitey” has rarely had negative connotations. I’m pretty sure no ‘whities” ahd to pay 100 pounds for the privilege of entering NZ in 1890, and no “whities” could be arrested simply for being a white person. It’s indicative of a perspective, and reflects and feeds those who actually believe PI’s and maori are second class, less than etc…
Yeah, that’s right sideoiler, no one batted an eyelid when Hone’s email went public. There was no scandal, no calls for him to be sacked, no apologies demanded and given, nah hang on, that’s like the opposite of what happened. There was a series of apologies and hui with his electorate, and a stand down period, hell, even smile and wave got frowny faced and stern for a bit.
Haden is getting supported by the Minister, gives a pretty lame apology and told he should just keep his head down and do his ambassador gig on the quiet. There’s loads of support for him in comparison.
@ Tracey,
“Frankly I get sick of free speech rolled out as some kind of catch-all argument.”
We do not have freedom of speech in NZ, if we did this post would not have seen the light of day, I don’t think Haden said that PI’s or “Darkies were second rate players, He said that Canterbury had a team selection policy based on a racial quota. (I doubt it)
I detest being refered to as Whitey or European, and “Pakeha” I regard with the same disdain as a person of colour may regard the word nigger.
Haden should go after all his ambassador role is probably a job for the boys as most things this Govt does.
There are no Maori ambassadors but lots of great Maori rugby players to look on as role models
Haden hates the success of the crusaders and its culture of support and family values they bring to the team!!
@Tracey – he has the right to free speech and you don’t have the right to not be offended…
Just because he has said something that has made us think and made us a bit uncomfortable doesn’t mean he should get the can…
In fact if I have read the ERA correctly he can only be fired for bringing his employer into disrepute, he hasn’t as he doesn’t work for the canterbury rugby union…
Lets discuss the equivalent of Andy Haden’s comment, from the other end of the spectrum.
Imagine this…Jonah Lomu comes out and publicly says ‘The Auckland Blues make it a rule that they never have more than 3 honkies in the team at any one time’….
How would that have sat with the general public? Would Jonah had kept his job as Ambassador? Would the general public have been so forgiving of him? How many complaints would have been laid with the Human Rights Commission?
Carmel if Jonah Lomu said that it would have been funny rather than offensive!
Europeans don’t (I think) place the same emphasis on comments that a racially based & derogatory in nature because their role in history was very different to that of indigenous groups…
I know the point you are trying to make but really, the issue stands well on its own – someone who makes a living at being able to schmooze well should know when to use “locker room” talk and when not to.
Andy Haden clearly hasn’t learn to adapt his language according to his audience so he should resign as such terminology is hardly fitting for a ambassador who is meant to be able to connect with all races, cultures and countries.
I’ve never been a fan of Haden and am not surprised that Trevor’s said despite liking Haden, he’d not have appointed him. He’s always seemed a oaf to me. A man out of his time and trading on past glories.
His comments disrespect all Canterbury players and All Blacks, not only the Maori and Polynesian, and he should have resigned. He hasn’t because he has a far larger sense of himself than he does respect for NZ and the All Blacks.
Let’s not forget Mr Haden was a champion of keeping “politics out of sport” – funny he accepted a political appointed within sport
he was one of the first using trusts to earn income and keep amateur status… there’s a pattern
Politics and sport have always been a match made in heaven. Every Summer Olympics, especially between 1968 and 1988, have had politics crash the party.
1916, 1940 & 1944 – all Games cancelled due to the World Wars.
1968 – Mexican police use lethal force on hundreds of protesters; the Black Power salute.
1972 – the Munich Massacre.
1976 – most of Africa boycotts Montreal due to Rob Muldoon letting then-Apartheid ruled South Africa to play NZ.
1980 – the West boycotts Moscow.
1984 – the Eastern Bloc boycotts LA.
1988 – North Korea and several others boycott Seoul.
Yup, what Andy meant was could we not let politics stuff up his chance to play and make money from sport.
Haden’s always wanted everything his way, remember this is the bloke who, as I understand it, was key to the formation of the Cavaliers.
@Carmel, yes if Jonah had come out and said that, it would have been fine too, if that had been his true belief… and he should also kept his job…
Some of you are waaay to sensitive!