Shame on you Brian Rudman. And Mike Lee you don’t seem much better.
I don’t begrudge Aucklanders the $500m for their new trains. I know they can make for a better city.
But for Rudman to argue that Kiwis should not be considered for the jobs involved is just selfish. Berl thinks there could be 1,200 extra.
There is brilliant work being done both at Hillside and Woburn workshops.
The complicated and highly technical parts of the new trains are made in Europe. The real choice is whether the less technical work, worth about 70% of the contract, is done in China or in New Zealand.
I have invited Steven Joyce to come out to the Hutt workshops – it would take about 90 minutes including travel time from the Beehive. And if he was half reasonable then he would encourage Kiwirail to bid for the contract to build the trains for Auckland.
Trevor can you please explain why the trains currently being built in Korea for the Wellington commuter network aren’t being built in NZ. These decisions were clearly made when Labour was in power, working with the Wellington Regional council I see the government is funding 90% of the purchase price so could have required them to be built in NZ as part of the funding requirement. Why is it such a great idea now?
Be fair to Rudman..His point, methinks, is that NZ has not proven it can build the needed trains..Noo doubt, in time, NZers will be able to build them, but there appears to be no evidence that in recent times NZers have built any trains. Rudman’s point was: Why should Auckland wait until NZers learn the necessary building skills..
Be fair to Rudman..His point, methinks, is that NZ has not proven it can build the needed trains..No doubt, in time, NZers will be able to build them, but there appears to be no evidence that in recent times NZers have built any trains. Rudman’s point was: Why should Auckland wait until NZers learn the necessary building skills..
To be fair,Auckland has been stuffed around by central government for years over their public transport so I can see where Rudman is coming from over this.
Wellington got its electric trains in the 1930s. It’s now 2010 and it still hasn’t happened up north.
John said:
In that case, at least allow industry to get a timeline and project plan proposal together to see what lead times actually are. There may also be other lead time benefits down the track – when you want to order a replacement carriage for instance.
I repeat what I said on The Standard:
” Jum
5 May 2010 at 6:06 pm
Sitting side by side, there they were Joyce and David Bennett, yet were they singing from the same song sheet in Parliament today?
No they were not!
Instead, we had yesterday Joyce telling us that we were too stupid to build carriages, something we’d been doing already. We had the costings, the passion and the New Zealanders wanting a job, but no said Joyce, cleverly omitting to mention that not even China builds the engines. We intended to import the engine. All very sensible stuff. No said Joyce. He doesn’t want Kiwis to have faith in themselves.
Yet here was Bennett, yelling like a mad thing today in Parliament, saying no to the redundancy package. Labour needed to have faith in Kiwis.
WTF!
As for Joyce and Bennett:
What they are both though is totally lacking in any sort of plan, or care for New Zealanders’ children’s futures.
What a sad bunch of losers. The tipping point is nigh.”
And lets look even further than building the trains. Now we have 1200 new jobs, new tech and new experience, what can that be turned into once those trains are done? What are the new prospects for niche exports, for developing new industries, for the transfer of those skills to other areas of the economy.
1200 jobs is a good start. But lets also analyse and verbalise the possible paybacks from after that point to show that Labour really has vision for the future. And faith in New Zealand.
I would like to hear the answer to the fair question raised by Robb.
Robb – I thought the decision on those trains was made when the network was owned by a private company, Tranzrail, before the government bought it and made it Kiwirail.
There is no way a NZ railway workshop can build these hi tech trains and compete at the same quality and value as a major specialist rolling stock manufacturer from Asia.
To say otherwise is folly and exposes the NZ taxpayer to a lot of unnessary expense and risk. They may be able to carryout the ongoing repairs and maintenance as a service agent.
At some point there must be a limit to the extent to which Labour tries to differentiate itself from National. This is a bridge too far and I dont support National.
There are many expensive excavators and bulldozers imported into NZ and I have never heard Labour asking for those to built in worskhops here.
@ Robb, Tracey, Hilary – my memory is that the decisions were made very soon after we bought Kiwirail back and there was such urgency that there was no question of getting them done here. That was not the case with the loco decision made by the Nats last year and even less with the auckland units decision yet to be made.
Great idea, Trev
I am sure that should a NZ company tender for the units they would have to do so against a time frame and cost. I believe that one of the spokesman said he believed that they could meet the deadline. (Now who said that within the last 5-6 days?) If they can they should get preferential treatment because its us!
Godber said:
Missing the point a little here I feel Godber – no, NZ won’t be able to compete against the best in the world straight away. But pretty quickly. Thats what encouraging industrial development and advancing our capabilities is all about. Giving home grown companies a chance to be world best.
20 years ago Hyundai was a cheap, poor imitation of Japanese cars like Honda and Toyota. Imagine if someone decided there and then to pull the plug on them, saying that they were obviously not able to “compete at the same quality and value” as the pros in the world, the Japanese and the Germans. But they kept at it and built their capabilities bit by bit. Today Hyundai – NZ car of the year, no problem.
Trevor, I would have more sympathy for your position if it hadn’t been the previous Labour government that farted about for around 5 years over electrification even though it’s the only viable option in the long term for rail in Auckland. And then, as if to rub salt into our wounds, central govt wasn’t even going to come up with the money for the trains – even though they did for Wellington’s trains.
Point is, the trains are way overdue. We are running 1960s Perth trains that they got rid of in 1991 because they were too old. We can’t wait longer. We can’t risk not getting best value for money. In a perfect world, with more time on our hands we would build them here. Sadly, and largely thanks to Labour pissing around for years over the issue, we don’t have that time to spare.
Be a wee bit fair jarbury. While the decision to electrify took a while we didn’t own Kiwirail for long before the election. And while you might have wanted us to do whatever Toll wanted we weren’t prepared to give them a blank cheque.
Get real a few months v a thousand jobs is worth thinking about – especially as you are asking Hutt and Dunedin people to pay for your trains. And others have asked for us to pay for your roads.
You are sounding like the spokesperson for Banksie.
Get real a few months v a thousand jobs is worth thinking about – especially as you are asking Hutt and Dunedin people to pay for your trains. And others have asked for us to pay for your roads.
I believe Darth Vader would say: “Impressive. MOST impressive.”
Trevor:
If you’d like to come up to Auckland next year, and campaign in West and South Auckland by calling public transport users “selfish” be my guest. Don’t think Phil Goff or any of your other Auckland colleagues are going to thank you for it though.
And while I often vehemently disagree with Rudman and Mike Lee, sneering at them as “selfish” Tory stooges is outright laughable.
Great posts Loota. Interesting comment Jum that the new Chinese locomotives for Kiwirail appear to use engines sourced from a third party? This would appear to be a point worth checking up on in parliament. If this is true, it would give weight to the case to build trains in NZ using a mix of NZ built and imported components.
Government contracts such as this are a wonderful opportunity to build New Zealand’s skill base. Manufacturers in New Zealand need to be encouraged to invest in staff upskilling, new industrial equipment and the many other improvements that will have allow New Zealand’s productivity to leap forwards. The train contract looks to provide benefits to manufacturers nationwide, acting as sub-contractors to Kiwirail.
Our youngest and brightest, the game-breakers and the idealists, need to be encouraged to stay in this country. They will do so if there are opportunities for them that demand the very best that New Zealand can deliver. Those achievements will in turn deliver productive jobs throughout the community. Sounds like a good plan. C’mon Labour develop that alternative future-vision!
While the buld-em-here proposal seems attractive (and more future-oriented), I do understand Joshua’s impatience.
The last government certainly dragged its heels about electrification and new running stock and then put in place a regional petrol tax so Aucklanders could pay for the improvements. Cullen had to be dragged to the centre of New Lynn before his office and Treasury stopped rejecting its crucial rail separation project despite clear cost-benefit analyses and major council co-funding. Then the current lot stuff around a bit longer, scrap the regional tax and reduce the units to be ordered, while approving a nine figure sum to begin the holiday highway instead (with BCR less than 1).
As for “asking others to pay for” Auckland’s trains and roads, that’s plain wrong. For decades Auckland has contributed more in transport-related funding than has been applied in our area. It’s Wellington you should be looking at – with its new trains overwhelmingly funded by all taxpayers. Or check the smooth highways of Canterbury.
We will only have one world-scale city in this country (hence the “super”-city palaver) and it is in all our interests for it to have great transport. If that’s built in the Hutt or Dunedin, great. But local jobs are not a reason to risk big delays or even failure. I’m sure that could all be addressed in a proper tender – providing there’s enough confidence at the top to even try. But I do understand why some don’t want to go there at all.
Actually, Godber, we probably could build them with ease.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_bus
We’re one of very few countries in the world that build hybrid buses and we already overhaul existing trains. We’d probably have to import some pre-made parts until we developed the ability to make them ourselves but the skills are available and so is the medium to heavy industry.
Actually, there’s more risk from importation especially with Peak Oil here. The reality is that we may not be able to continue to import such vehicles in the near future so we need to be able to build them ourselves from our own resources and skills.
Sacha – I see it this way: world scale cities need world scale income, not just a large population or other measure of physical size. And a world scale economy is one based on having advanced industrial and advanced services capabilities competitive enough to sell globally.
So pretty much…Auckland might get a nice flash Chinese train set which makes it look like a modern world class city. But spending the money out of the country will do little to help us develop that advanced world class economy.
And we need that because it will provide the real cash flooding in to the country which will make Auckland an actual world class city (Sydney, London, Shanghai, Mumbai, Singapore, Honk Kong,…).
Trevor, funding electrification had zilch to do with Toll and you know it. They wouldn’t have owned the trains, they wouldn’t have owned the tracks, they’re irrelevant to the argument.
The BERL report says that it could take KiwiRail up to TWO YEARS longer to build the trains (69 months v 48 months). Rail patronage in Auckland is growing at nearly 20% per year. As I said in my previous post, we literally cannot wait two more years for these trains.
jarbury, was the 69 months vs 48 months figure in the BERL report, was that for completing delivery of ALL the rolling stock? If so, AKL would begin receiving its first new rolling stock much earlier than that i.e. they would not have to wait 2 years before receiving new trains.
Also – does the BERL report indicate what hours per week worked they assumed by NZ manufacturers? (They may have for instance assumed standard 40 hr/wk working weeks)
Going to 7 days/week shifts could pull time frames in significantly.
Again, AKL may not have to wait up to two years longer.
What I am saying is that lots of things can be done if you give NZ industry a chance, lets not throw in the towel yet.
And yet, under Labour we had companies like Swazi being told to do their manufacturing in China. Go figure.
especially as you are asking Hutt and Dunedin people to pay for your trains. And others have asked for us to pay for your roads.
Am pretty sure this kind of simplistic and Parochial jibe is what turns some off Labour. Auckland may not be perfect (afterall a majority of voters put Banks in, twice) but an MP make these kind of throw away remarks only fuels the “them and us” mentality of many in this country. My experience is Aucklanders love this country, they travel it widely freely acknoledge the contributions of the rest of the country, in greater numbers than in reverse. Why fuel it?
IF the cost of us paying another nation to buy the engines and build the bodies is roughly the same as us buying the engines and building the bodies I cannot see the objection? Time? Just about every major project/contract in this country runs over time, and that’s with robust tender processes. The construction industry is notorious for time overruns with bugger all consequence.
Let’s actually get down to a decent analysis… time, cost, quality, money in – money out and so on, and leave the petty jibes for others?
Jarbury said:
As Draco hinted at: times have changed. Labour has changed. Time to move on and take action on new understandings.
Looking backwards is for learning lessons to grow from, not for living in
How come my earlier comment questioning why Wellington’s trains were urgent and Auckland’s not has been deleted without comment..?
At Jeremy – hmmmmm hope that’s not the case. Wouldn’t be fair play if so. Lets see what the mods have to say.
Jeremy we have been having some techie server problems – lost the whole system a couple of times in last three days – a couple of my comments gone too. Repeat yours please.
Ah that explains why your first comment is now different, I was basically echoing Jarbury’s sentiments that Auckland’s situation is just as time sensitive as Wellington’s, if not more so, the only difference is Wellington has had electrification since 1937 so I would state with some clarity that Auckland’s is far more pressing..!
Thank you for the clarification…
Loota and Draco T Bastard
Largely agreed.
NZ built its own trains for a long period of our history. The KA and WAB were designed here to suit our conditions, made to last and needing only technology based here in NZ.
A flash new train is only a small part of the picture as ongoing running costs and life of the train are the major considerations.
Future reliance on rail is accepted so NZ should be producing its own. Time lines are a red hearing when the vision of our transport future is not held let alone in Govt policy.
The same old palaver, short term solutions and market place arguements usually based around existing commercial offerings.
If Woburn is not equipped that is of little significance but Woburn does have massive facilities for NZ scale of operational need in spite of being run down for a lengthy period. NZ Railways enlisted many NZ based firms to contribute in the past and can bring real growth of self reliance within our transport system.
Global markets are fickle and rely on many changing conditions. We need rail for the long haul and home grown design with local manufacture specifically for out need is a sound concept any Govt should persue.
The building up of capability to deliver within NZ should be a major strategy if we are to turn around the flagging self reliance that once we were justly proud of.
Tomorrow will be different and more of the recent same will not be sustainable.