If iwi leaders don’t have a role in the lives of their iwi members, then they aren’t leaders. And if they aren’t leaders they shouldn’t be trying to run prisons.

If they are prepared to run the prison at a loss then I will retract my statements about being in it for money, and apologise.

If iwi want to make money from our people they should make money by mentoring and supporting them through to university, or an apprenticeship or in to any other business but not prisons. Working closely with schools is a start.

Pita Sharples should be using his influence as Associate Minister of Corrections to make all the changes possible to the prison system so that it does meet the needs of Maori, but within the current system so that no iwi is compromised by receiving money for running them. That is a job for the state, who Pita Sharples now represents. Why else is he the Associate Minister?

As for your expectations of iwi leaders. Where do you get this idea that iwi leaders seem to have some major role in the lives of their iwi members? I have been on school boards and can you tell you now that if an iwi leader turned up asking for the names of at risk kids, we wouldn’t be handing over a list to them as you suggest.

And you say that iwi leaders need to build universities — well in my iwi that’s exactly what we have done — Te Wananga o Raukawa and the Endowed College at Hopuhopu, which is in the process of being set up. That’s a positive step for Maori but it is not going to keep all our people out of prison so we still have to look at the prison situation and how it caters for Maori. Ideally, with all the initiatives you suggest, we would have less Maori in prison so I am not disagreeing with you entirely, but we have lots to do and Maori run prisons, it seems to me, is an idea worth looking at in an environment that we all seem to agree is not working.

But let’s be real here Kelvin, no iwi leader I know of gets joy from seeing the huge numbers of their people put in prison. I don’t know what iwi leaders you engage with but I would love to know the names of those you say are rubbing their hands together in glee at the prospect of getting rich by locking their own up. Willie Jackson doesn’t count. I’m not sure what your belief is in Willie Jackson but he is hardly the authority for Maori leadership. Read your response again. You seem to imply Willie Jackson has a key voice for Maori on this kaupapa. We all know he is vocal and controversial and I don’t mind the guy but I don’t give much weight to what he thinks. He is not the voice for my iwi or any iwi for that matter so to use him as a reference point after saying the stuff you have about iwi leaders, is slightly ironic. Of course Willie Jackson, the champion for urban Maori and Maori enterprise, is going to say what he did. But that doesn’t mean all Maori leaders think like that.

I think you need to be a bit more real on this issue Kelvin. If you disagree with private prisons because they are fundamentally not in line with your political ideology, or party policy, then say so and say why. But to put out what you have (which amounts to an misguided attack on Maori leadership) in the way that you have is just sloppy politics. I usually find myself agreeing with you but when you take a negative approach and make unfounded claims, as you have with this issue, you lose credibility.

And well ahead societally, in ways which can’t even begin to be quantified.

The trick is putting together a good programme which really works.

“so that these iwi can mentor these at risk kids from now through to university to PREVENT them going to prison in the first place.” Gotta be better than being mentored by the gangs, but I don’t see why its the iwi doing the mentoring, but maybe setting up a couple of mentors/experiences for different parts of life.

“Iwi that I have spoken to, interested in the private prison possibility, are not saying that want to do this because of the money but because they are not happy with how the present system is catering for their people. Fair enough!”

Willie Jackson isn’t an iwi, but on Marae this morning he said, “Why shouldn’t Maori make a profit?” – so they are interested in the money, and it’s naive to pretend otherwise. They make their money by reducing rehabilitation services, double bunking, getting overseas guards who are prepared to work for less but can’t relate to Maori prisoners, reducing guard numbers which is dangerous combined with the double bunking, paying guards less and employing guards who don’t meet the standards – how do we know, because this is what happened when Auckland Central Remand Prison was privatised under the last National government.

“The public prison system is not working for them or their people and they are, rightly, looking at other ways to address this than sit around and continue to watch their people go to prison and then come out either entirely not rehabilitated, or an even more hardened criminal!”

Where’s Pita Sharples in all this? he’s the Associate Minister of Corrections. Why isn’t he insisting kaupapa Maori and all Willie Jackson’s ideas get infused in all prisons now? If he doesn’t have the influence as the Associate Minister to push for the system to be changed, why is he in the role? He has just rolled over and toed the National Party line when there’s no evidence that private prisons work. In fact the evidence says the contrary. Paying million dollar contracts to iwi to run prisons simply makes them dependent on the current government for income – vote buying.

“what does Kelvin have to offer this debate other than a petty attack on some iwi keen on exploring this idea?’”

Let’s start with the following:

1. Schools can identify at risk Maori students right now. These iwi leaders need to walk into their local schools and ask for these lists of names. They then need to ask Judith Collins (Corrections & Police), Anne Tolley (Education), Simon Power (Justice), Paula Bennett (Social Development), Pita Sharples (Maori Affairs) and Tariana Turia (Whanau Ora) to set aside money from their Ministries so that these iwi can mentor these at risk kids from now through to university to PREVENT them going to prison in the first place.

2. Pita Sharples needs to demand that Maori kaupapa and all the stuff Willie Jackson says will work, is infused in all prisons right now and prove it works with the state running the show.

3. These iwi leaders need to build universities, so that we can educate our people, hospitals so that we can improve our Maori health outcomes and research centres so that Maori can change the world.

Building prisons lacks inspiration, aspiration, innovation and ambition. It is the most negative institution we could possibly want to build and run, and if being in charge of a prison is the best we can do, we’re stuffed. Iwi leaders who see the incarceration of Maori by Maori as a way forward for Maori deserve all the criticism I can muster.

You may not get it exactly right the first time so be prepared to adjust and fine tune your strategy as you go on over the years.

+1 to that Beba Koru