So a private prison is going to be built at Wiri.
I see some iwi are rubbing their hands together in glee at the prospect of being able to get rich by locking their own up.
It goes to show how high the aspirations of some of our Maori leaders are. We now aspire to bung the bros in the hinaki and watch the dollars roll in. The longer and more often we can put them away, the sooner we will be able to afford to expand the prison and lock even more away.
With the soaring crime rate and high Maori unemployment everything is coming together nicely for iwi to become extremely wealthy. The last thing these iwi will want is for the country to emerge from the recession or for our kids to do well at school. Every Maori child born is a potential source of income – not as a leader, businessman or entrepreneur but as a Beagle Boy.
What the heck, if profits start to dip or costs need to be cut, these iwi can just pay the other rellies who guard the bros a little less, or sack a couple of them – purely in the best interests of the iwi of course. Better still they could just buy a couple of hundred bucks worth of piss, give it to some of the younger bros and when they get locked up for drink driving, smacking the missus over or putting a knife into someone we can rest assured in the knowledge the iwi will utimately benefit.
Making money by locking the bros up is culturally abhorrent and if this is one of the Treaty rights that we’re after, they can stick it. I’d rather have my integrity.
By all means infuse kaupapa Maori throughout the prison system – surely Pita Sharples can wield his considerable influence as Associate Minister of Corrections to make this happen? Just don’t ever pretend it is okay for iwi to lock the whanau up and make money from it.
Personally I’d prefer iwi put their energies into supporting their local schools and building universities, but maybe I’m just old fashioned. That would take a bit of effort and why would iwi bother going down that old path when there’s a quick buck to be made by locking the bros up? Besides, preventing Maori from getting to prison in the first place will cut into profits.
Kelvin – interesting post and very un PC….I like it! Yes I would like to see more emphasis placed on why Maori make up 50.8% of the total prison population too and see some solutions that would prevent so many of them ending up in prison.
What does Labour propose?
This post is not “un PC”. It shows not just the absurdity of people profiting from locking up their countrymen, but specifically how unethical it would be for iwi leadership to be doing so. A courageous post Kelvin.
A civil society, if that’s what we want to be, should never profit from locking people up. Any and all funds available should be going to improving the system of rehabilitation, not to paying shareholders.
As Grant said in an earlier post, if the state has the power to take people’s liberty away from them, it then must have the obligation and responsibility to be the one who deals with it, manages it, and pays for it.
Prisons are about the last thing a decent society should privatize. If, as the Minister claims, private prisons can do something better than the public system, then the public system needs to learn from them, not hand over the inmates.
With 50% of the prison population being Maori, the idea of their leaders profiting from their incarceration is indeed an unsettling one.
Labour are essentially saying the Maori party & iwi will sell out to the highest bidder all in the name of profit – I would call that un PC!
Rebecca, you condescendingly ask “what does Labour propose”. They, last time i checked, advocate for a more progressive taxation system (than National does), which channels a greater proportion of GDP to health, education, welfare and the justice system (than National could). Crime is a result of poverty so the ’solution’ to crime is poverty reduction and a smaller gap between the have’s and the have not’s. To do that you need a fairer society, not a ‘private’ prison.
Selected weak Maori have flocked to give opinion to help acceptance of nationals privatisation of prisons.
List to and red their opinion carefully and you will be cleverer than most if you can find any hard data to support privatised prisons.
The few are acting as national supporters in this matter and they may be taxed to understand what it the privatisation is about.
Fool rush in where wise men fear to tread.
Talk is cheap.
Where’s Hone on this? MIA. He should be outraged. Hone, from one mokopuna of Patuone to another: how bout less colourful korero, more mahi?
@ Jake Q “Crime is a result of poverty”. I cannot agree with this. To say such a thing is an affront to all people who don’t have much money and choose not to be criminals. I have travelled far and wide in NZ & overseas and see so many places and people who could be considered ‘in poverty’ yet retain their dignity by offering manakitanga and a crime & violent free way of life. I also see many many criminals and people on their way to jail in NZ and think it is more to do with Parekura’s ‘matrix of disfunctionality’ than perceived poverty. Alcohol & drug fueled family & street violence and jealousy bashings-for-gadgets are not poverty related.
@Pedrovsky actually, many, many studies have shown a positive correlations between alcohol and drug abuse, and even family violence, and poverty. The poorer you are the more likely you are to bash your wife. The poorer you are the more likely you are to steal. The poorer you are the more likely you are to abuse alcohol or drugs. The poorer you are the more likely you are to (insert negative social indicator or behaviour here.)
This takes nothing away from the fantastic individuals who, despite their poverty, lead crime and drug-abuse free lives. But the link exists. There is no denying this. Although many libertarian types will try. Saying everyone’s decisions are entirely their own ‘free will’. Life is not, however, that simple.
Jake Q – any change that intelligence is an intevening variable?
Jake Q: perhaps condescending but it is still a valid question! As someone else has said on here, so far all Labour have done while in opposition is stonewall everything that National proposes.
if crime is the result of poverty well then, considering that the most recent data falls into when Labour was in government, then isn’t this a case of the chickens coming home to roost with respect to their policies? Again I stole that line from someone else on here….
And a “fairer society” does not necessarily preclude the option of PPPs.
D: Yes I am wondering where Hone Harawira is on this debate too. He’s a good man and always puts the sense back into nonsense.
Pedrovsky: I could not agree more. NZ has a real tolerance for all the things that lead to criminal activity such as family violence and child abuse often exacerbated by alcohol and drug abuse. It is these things that are behind the majority of our crime statistics NOT one’s financial status.
For example data from April 2009 shows “at least a third of recorded violence offences and family violence incidents in 2007/08 were committed where the offender had consumed alcohol prior to committing the offence. For serious offences (such as homicides and incidents where force was used by Police) approximately half of the alleged offenders or victims were affected by alcohol. Approximately one third of participants in the New Zealand Alcohol and Drug Abuse Monitoring (NZ-ADAM) programme were reported to have been using alcohol at the time of arrest. In 2007/08 72 percent of participants in the NZ-ADAM study who had been using alcohol at the time of arrest reported that it contributed at least to some or all of their offending at the time of arrest.”
Stats are from http://www.alcohol.org.nz/NZStatistic_1703.aspx
Sorry Jake Q but bollicks – where is this research? Sorry, I know that sounds patronizing but attributing the leading cause of crime, particularly violent crime minimalises what victims go through.
There’s loads of research that says otherwise. E.g. have a look at the Are You Ok info:
http://www.areyouok.org.nz/files/test/resources/ReportingViolence_guidelines.pdf
Violence particularly is mostly attributed to “depression, substance abuse, stress, a troubled life or a failed marriage”
Also have a look at http://www.ahw.org.nz/resources/pdf/Violence_F_Sheet.pdf
There’s definitely a conflict of interest, this is why prisons are better left to the state!
“so far all Labour have done while in opposition is stonewall everything that National proposes.” No they haven’t and poor Phil Goff did get snubbed over the job summit and the ETS.
Chauvel too. 
“then isn’t this a case of the chickens coming home to roost with respect to their policies” – Yeah those B******S with their WFF, closing the gaps, getting unemployment down, kiwisaver.
I disagree I think it’s poverty, and then the poor do drink
Spud re “I think it’s poverty, and then the poor do drink” well then the issue again is alcohol, not poverty! Based on that logic if they got the rehabilitation & support they needed then they wouldn’t drink as much, would be much better off financially and commit less crime…..see…!
As for “closing the gaps” – depends on what your definition is. If food parcel uptake has increased dramatically since 1999 then I would most definitely disagree.
Poverty is WHY they drink!
I’m really proud of what they tried to and did achieve.
Prevention is the best weapon against crime… and the path is education; but not only at schools, but the education that is given at home. We are leaving aside our values as a society. I’m not talking moralistically; but what are we really teaching to the younger generations. We should take a look at our role models…
Beba Koru – I emphatically agree!!!
Spud – perhaps, but In 2006/2007 the stats showed that Binge Drinkers and Moderate Drinkers both tend to be male and have higher incomes than Non-Drinkers. For example, 65 percent of Binge Drinkers and 64 percent of Moderate Drinkers have personal or household incomes of $50,000 or more, compared to 49 percent of Non-Drinkers (and 62 percent of all adults 18+).
And while Binge Drinkers tend to be over-represented by Maori (17 percent, cf. 11 percent of the New Zealand population of adults 18+), particularly when compared to Moderate Drinkers (7 percent) the Non-Drinkers are also over-represented by Maori (16 percent).
In terms of youth: similar stats as that above in terms of gender and demographic. The problem lies with the fact that we have a good 83% of 15-17 year olds drinking – alcohol which by and large has been given to them by a parent or friend aged 18 or older and that most drink RTDs.
Just check out http://www.alac.org.nz
Further check out this article http://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/article.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=3595185
Emma Davies states that child abuse increases the chances of an adult living in poverty in later life…..so no, I’m still not convinced that poverty rather than environment, lack of appropriate values and support are the catalyst for our ever increasing crime rates
@ Kelvin, An excellent blog.
@ Spud You are a good old potato and if I knew how to send you one of those yellow smile faces, I would.
I just commente don this over at FB, but anywayI like the idea, it’ll force people in jail to learn the Maori culture and it will give the Iwi of the tribes in question the ability to see how well their leaders and trust boards are working for them. Maori could be taught within our prisons as well as culture . Or it could just increase Mongrel Mob Membership, I don’t know I’m gunning for the former
I think your post is extremely cynical Kelvin. Would you say the same about marae courts which are growing in number? That the kaumatua are chortling with glee that money is pouring in for that purpose? Maori wardens? Do these people want to keep the ‘bros’ pissed and feckless to their own advantage?
@Lindsay – too right I’m cynical. Cynical that any Maori leader thinks that locking up our people for profit is a good thing. If this is the extent of our leaders’ aspirations for our people, then we’re buggered.
Spud. I will have to disagree with you on this one and agree with Rebecca. Yes I do drink, if you count every now and then Canterbury cream in a glass of milk when the kids go to bed, one $12 bottle will last 3 weeks. Poverty stops me drinking, though I’ve never been a big drinker anyway, 2 glasses of wine and I feel it. Being educated right from wrong is the most important thing. I grew up in poverty. I worked I had money and now in poverty again and I can say I drink less now than when I was working. Could put that down to the fact I have no social life and no after work drinks as well as having no money after bill have been paid, two children so need to have a clear head and study.
I agree with Rebecca that drugs stops peoples ability to hold down a job and function in society. Stop P and you will stop a lot of violence and crime.
That is my 2 cents worth.
For some reason the stats I posted earlier (in terms of where the demographic of binge drinking lies) has yet to be posted.
Anyway Spud: A Mother has said above that she doesn’t drink because she can not afford to do so. This means that she, as any good parent does, puts the wellbeing of her children before the consumption of alcohol.
Other people do not have the capacity to make such good choices – this is because of their environment and/or dependency on substances. This is not because they are necessarily poor.
Further, it is interesting how you say you are very proud of Labour’s so-called accomplishments yet say poverty is the precursor to crime in this country.
Crime has gone up. This means that based on your own logic, you are acknowledging that poverty has increased too and thus, agreeing that as more people were lining up for food parcels during the last 10 years, Labour did not in fact get it right.
Another thing to bare in mind is that in Japan for example, binge drinking like in NZ, is widespread. YET they do not go and assault people or vandalise buildings.
While it is very important that those who are incarcerated are looked after properly and given the support they need so as to not re-offend, we need to start placing equal emphasis on why people end up going down this path in the first place.
Like I have said many times in on this site, New Zealanders have a very high tolerance for violence accompanied by a “she’ll be right” attitude.
Real change requires real, proactive solutions.
Brave post (for a polly).
Congrats.
When will we discuss the virtues of building
state housing for “criminals” and state housing for
“beneficiaries”?
Most of the answers lie elsewhere.
When Turia and Sharples stop hiding behind academic
bs and admit that their own just might have a teensy weensy bit of reponsibility for their own plight we might get to open and honest dialogue.
I am surprised that the richest maoris in the country never seem to appear in various debates.
@peterlepaysan
I’m sorry I can’t seem to interpret your post and I’m confused as to what you are trying to say.
Are you saying that building housing for criminals is the same as providing state houses for beneficiaries? If you are alot of low income workers live in state houses. Have I interpeted your post wrong?
So it’s the profit motive that really bothers you. Because as it stands thousands of Maori find an advantage in the disadvantage of other Maori, as public servants or non-government agency employees. Their livelihoods are predicated on Maori disadvantage. And whanau ora is about to ramp that up.
Apart from an expectation that private providers can run prisons at a lower cost to the taxpayer, the govt will also be looking for a lower recidivism rate. If both can be achieved will the profit motive matter? Or would you rather the state continued with its monopoly and poor track record of rehabilitation?
@ Lindsay – It’s not in any for profit prison’s best interests to reduce recidivism. They will make their money by locking the bros up more often and for longer.
I’d rather pay iwi for preventing Maori from getting to prison in the first place, so no, the profit motive doesn’t bother me, just profit from locking up the whanau.
@ Lindsay – schools can identify kids who are at risk from a very early stage. Why don’t schools pass these names on to iwi leaders at say age six, and iwi get paid to mentor those kids through to university. Nah, too hard. Easier to lock them up when they’re older.
Deleted. Iain. Red Alert’s policy on moderation is here> Clare
http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/11/09/good-things-in-moderation/
Except it is the judiciary who make decisions about how long people get locked up for. Although I do seem to recall a story of corruption out of a US state whereby a judge was in the pocket of a prison provider. Nevertheless, you would similarly have to question the motivation of anyone whose livelihood depends on some form of social dysfunction to actually resolve it, thereby working themselves out of a job.
I’m with you on early intervention but then we get into a whole new area of how early is early enough, and why are young Maori (and young non-Maori) incentivised to start families before they are able to support them.
Support them emotionally and financially.
Kelvin Davis says: @ Lindsay – schools can identify kids who are at risk from a very early stage. Why don’t schools pass these names on to iwi leaders at say age six, and iwi get paid to mentor those kids through to university.
Splendid idea. Let’s do it. Nothing in the idea of any outside body, maori or otherwise, running prisons prevents this sort of initiative. It’s not either/or.
Nah, too hard. Easier to lock them up when they’re older.
That’s below you Kevin.
I absolutely agree with Kelvin in his last post. And mainly I want to highlight the part where he says: “Nah, too hard.” We have become a society were we live through a philosophy of the easiest thing. It is easier to get drunk to avoid problems than make the effort to find a job or focus on school. It is easier to join a gang than stay close to good friends and family and being disciplined. It is easier to be truant than go to school, in every level, and learn something and do something with your life. It is easier to blame if someone is poor for being a delinquent than trying to encourage society to work harder… in every way. We love to get things easy, and we hate the philosophy of working hard.
I’m sure we all know more than one story of someone that went through adverse circumstances and by effort and working hard changed their reality 180*.
Iwi MUST focus on prevention. Leave rehabilitation to government. People don’t choose the circumstances they born in, but they have the opportunity to change them…
In a strange way Kelvin is right.
The issue is if Maori don’t own them who does? In any way owners of prisons have the incentive of keeping them full. Owners don’t really generally have a say as to whom ends up there as a “client”.
I agree that Iwi could put more money into keeping their own out of prisons. But as he well knows as does the Iwi, it’s not the money – it’s the attitude and behaviour of Maori that puts them there in disproportionate numbers and until the attitude and behaviour changes then Maori will continue to fill those jails right up.
Beba Koru – I agree with you in many ways when you say that we’re always too eager to chuck stuff into the too-hard box.
But I take issue with Kevin’s usage of the notion.
It’s not too hard to do what he suggests. He’s got loads of contacts in education, especially I assume within the maori world, and he’s in the perfect place to encourage this.
I hope he does. And I hope he gets support from across the board for doing it.
Sometimes simple ideas can be the most effective, and this one could be absolute gold.
@Rebecca 5.14 – Sorry, I haven’t been online tonight, was out drinking!
I wasn’t talking about different demographics, I was talking about poor people who drink too much because the poverty they are in makes them want to drink.
“65 percent of Binge Drinkers and 64 percent of Moderate Drinkers have personal or household incomes of $50,000 or more” – Just like Arthur
@JANicol – Thanks, you can either : ) or : D – just remove the spaces between.
@A Mother – I know you wouldn’t be a booze hound, you’re a good mother and sound like a classy lady.
I never meant to communicate that I thought poverty was the cause of binge drinking, rather that people who are in poverty who drink probably drink because they are poor. And I never believed that all poor people who drink, binge drink or even drink at all.
@Rebecca 8.49 – Yes, I know the feeling of being too poor to drink
I never meant that poverty was the only cause of poor people binge drinking, but I do believe that there are people out there who drink way too much to cope with their poverty.
on the subject of poor people binge drinking why do people turn to Meths – I’m certain there’s less murderous (well, maybe to a persons palate) spirits at any of our fine liquor establishments for around the 8-10$ mark, same bottle size and they’d get the satisfaction of smashing it.
Some people drink for pleasure, other social, others to get off their face, some to get calmer, sometimes a mixture of the above, it’s just how life is, and I know for a fact you can spend the equivalent of a fortnight worth of DPB on Alcohol in one night or even on one bottle, hell I have
One good thing about Jails is that they do force people to quit – though at the same time that may have forced people into the injail cocaine and P addictions etc
if only jails did force people to quit! most ex-prisoners come out in a lot worse condition than when they went in. And hardened and dehumanised – which is hardly surprising really.
Why do more Maori end up in prisons than white people
@ George – yep, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, but I couldn’t resist the dig at iwi leaders who seem to prefer the easy option of just reaping the rewards of locking our people up, than to actually thinking of ways to prevent incarceration in the first place.
Paying iwi to mentor at risk kids through to university IS simple, is positive, is preventative and should have a good outcome for iwi in the end.
When that child completes university (or an apprenticeship, if they prefer) I would assume they are better equipped to contribute to our society and give back to their iwi, than after serving a prison sentence.
Dylan I think I have an explanation: I think it is because Maori lost their culture, lost their identity through almost forced urbanisation and amalgamation with us, the Europeans.
While Maoridom has obviously had a renaissance in the last 15 or so years, but that doesn’t make up for those in their 40s or 50s or older who were banned from expressing and speaking their own language for so long. Who were almost forced through government policies to leave their Maraes and whanau behind and move into the cities. And these people had children and they had children.
Because of this loss of identity gangs became something that made them feel like they belonged. I think this also had a bit to do with what has been portrayed by America.
So in that sense I think NZ is paying the price for a very hurt group of people.
In terms of a way forward, this can only come if emphasis is placed on support. This should come first and foremost by Maori leaders such as Dr. Pita Sharples, but should be absolutely supported by the rest of the government and NZ society.
Apologies if I have offended anyone in my clumsy attempt to offer an explanation.
Kelvin Davis: “Paying iwi to mentor at risk kids through to university IS simple, is positive, is preventative and should have a good outcome for iwi in the end.”
I agree, I would love nothing more. Question is, why do these things NEVER happen? Why is the roots of how our criminals end up in prison never honestly addressed?
Rebecca says: “Apologies if I have offended anyone in my clumsy attempt to offer an explanation.”
I don’t think you (or anyone) should need to apologise for trying to understand and offer constructive views.
And I must say that from that persepective I’ve found this blog one of the most accepting.
Kelvin Davis says: “@ George – yep, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit”
No worries – we’re all tempted at times.
but I couldn’t resist the dig at iwi leaders who seem to prefer the easy option of just reaping the rewards of locking our people up, than to actually thinking of ways to prevent incarceration in the first place.
This concerns me. I’m not maori and don’t have any contact with maraes, komatua etc., whereas you must be very up to speed with how they operate. Is your personal experience that there are leaders in the maori community who would behave like this? It doesn’t square with the sort of view of maori leadership passed to us by the media.
Kelvin, excellent post. To me, it seems that iwi leaders wanting to cash in on tory privatisation at the expense of their own people have lost their moral and ethical compass.
Many of those commenting on this topic just do not understand.
Kelvin is absolutely correct. He is backed by empirical research and experiences of many in the education field.
Coming from a household of teachers this is not new stuff. My Dad was a principal of schools. His new entrant teacher at Howick Primary in the 1960’s has oft been quoted as saying, “You see them walking through the gate as a new entrant.” That is those little ones who have been and continue to be abused and neglected have the consequential social problems. I also had a cousin who worked in a borstel facility. In summer holidays Dad and he would compare notes as to those who had arrived from school to borstal.
The Progressive Party has very strong policy on this one expressed in “The About Time Document” written and prepared by Matt Robson as he took the role of Minister of Justice in 1999.
It’s over time for these known solutions to be implemented, but never ever ever by a National and hangers on government.
The privatisation of prisons, no matter who runs these profit making facilities IS NOT THE SOLUTION.
Dylan & Rebecca: And the sad fact is, the pattern is the same in any New World colony. One theory was put forward by the late Professor John Ogbu of “involuntary minorities”. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ogbu)
Kelvin: And how amusing would it be when those who accuse us of PC-ness get the tables turned on them.
DeepRed says: “And the sad fact is, the pattern is the same in any New World colony. One theory was put forward by the late Professor John Ogbu of “involuntary minorities”.”
An interesting idea, but it doesn’t explain why the traits he suggests are appropriate to involuntary minorities are displayed by, for example, the West Indian and African communities in the UK which are, by and large, voluntary minorities under his schema. Is there any explanation for why these people should display a different sense of belonging to similar black volunatry minorities in the US?
Conversely Vivienne I would suggest that we do understand as prisons are NEVER the solution to a reduction in crime and re-offending.