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	<title>Comments on: Time to reduce the gap between rich and poor</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/</link>
	<description>A blog written by Labour MPs</description>
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		<title>By: Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/comment-page-2/#comment-44022</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 20:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=12876#comment-44022</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s my point SPC - I&#039;m not denying WFF helped either however, poverty still grew even after 2006 and obviously things have become far worse when the recession started knocking at our doors. All you have to do is do a ring around the city missions etc and you will get all the &quot;facts&quot; you need. However, it looks like we are on the same page - as yes I agree, both parties have chosen to ignore real costs vs real wage &amp; a living benefit.

No government can call their tenure a success when people are struggling the same, sometimes worse off than what they were at the beginning of their tenure, when City Missions have been constantly struggling to keep up with demand and when things like child abuse stats have doubled - that is, jumped from 6000 in 2000 to anywhere between 10,000 and 13,000 per year by 2008. 

This country is in a very bad way and it didn&#039;t happen in 18 months, it has happened due to at least 30 years of poor policy that lacked vision and foresight. Everyone wants a quick fix, no one is prepared to battle through solutions.

Btw, WFF is not new - all it is is a revamp of family assistance, child tax credit, accommodation supplement and childcare subsidies under one new title (WFF). These things have been around for years in one form or another.  The 2004 merely modernised the concepts in terms of the thresholds, rates and criteria.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s my point SPC &#8211; I&#8217;m not denying WFF helped either however, poverty still grew even after 2006 and obviously things have become far worse when the recession started knocking at our doors. All you have to do is do a ring around the city missions etc and you will get all the &#8220;facts&#8221; you need. However, it looks like we are on the same page &#8211; as yes I agree, both parties have chosen to ignore real costs vs real wage &amp; a living benefit.</p>
<p>No government can call their tenure a success when people are struggling the same, sometimes worse off than what they were at the beginning of their tenure, when City Missions have been constantly struggling to keep up with demand and when things like child abuse stats have doubled &#8211; that is, jumped from 6000 in 2000 to anywhere between 10,000 and 13,000 per year by 2008. </p>
<p>This country is in a very bad way and it didn&#8217;t happen in 18 months, it has happened due to at least 30 years of poor policy that lacked vision and foresight. Everyone wants a quick fix, no one is prepared to battle through solutions.</p>
<p>Btw, WFF is not new &#8211; all it is is a revamp of family assistance, child tax credit, accommodation supplement and childcare subsidies under one new title (WFF). These things have been around for years in one form or another.  The 2004 merely modernised the concepts in terms of the thresholds, rates and criteria.</p>
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		<title>By: SPC</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/comment-page-2/#comment-43960</link>
		<dc:creator>SPC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=12876#comment-43960</guid>
		<description>Both your 5.14 reports are from 2006 (just after the first phase of WFF) and do not cover the full impact of the WFF help. While the first notes that WFF would help many, but not all, the second merely states that other forms of assistance would be required - suggesting no GST on food and housing subsidy (presumably as measures also including beneficiary families).

These people are not denying the help WFF provided (which reduced the number of families in poverty), just noting that those not covered by it are left behind in poverty. As for the increasing difficulties such people were facing - rising power and food costs, the reason is that the CPI index covers all costs (cheaper manufactured imports take down the average), not just necessities. There is a case for the CPI increase to benefits to be assesssed in a different way based on their actual living costs. 

IMO the real value of the benefit (in terms of affording necessities) has reduced by as much as the 1991 cuts because of inadequate CPI adjustments since then. Both parties know this and have chosen to ignore it. 

This is the reason for the difficulty for those families on benefits today - and thus for them food banks are becoming a routine part of their support. But despite that, the fact that WFF lifted the low waged poor out of povertry means there are less families in poverty than there were - of course while less, yet more desperate than ever (thus the busy food banks - the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both your 5.14 reports are from 2006 (just after the first phase of WFF) and do not cover the full impact of the WFF help. While the first notes that WFF would help many, but not all, the second merely states that other forms of assistance would be required &#8211; suggesting no GST on food and housing subsidy (presumably as measures also including beneficiary families).</p>
<p>These people are not denying the help WFF provided (which reduced the number of families in poverty), just noting that those not covered by it are left behind in poverty. As for the increasing difficulties such people were facing &#8211; rising power and food costs, the reason is that the CPI index covers all costs (cheaper manufactured imports take down the average), not just necessities. There is a case for the CPI increase to benefits to be assesssed in a different way based on their actual living costs. </p>
<p>IMO the real value of the benefit (in terms of affording necessities) has reduced by as much as the 1991 cuts because of inadequate CPI adjustments since then. Both parties know this and have chosen to ignore it. </p>
<p>This is the reason for the difficulty for those families on benefits today &#8211; and thus for them food banks are becoming a routine part of their support. But despite that, the fact that WFF lifted the low waged poor out of povertry means there are less families in poverty than there were &#8211; of course while less, yet more desperate than ever (thus the busy food banks &#8211; the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff).</p>
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		<title>By: SPC</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/comment-page-2/#comment-43957</link>
		<dc:creator>SPC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 09:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=12876#comment-43957</guid>
		<description>Your 5.07pm link says 

&quot;While the Working for Families package will lift half of these out of poverty, the Child Poverty Action Group&#039;s evaluation of Working for Families clearly shows that around 175,000 children are being left behind.

These are the children of beneficiaries who do not meet the criteria to benefit from the package. Seventy-five per cent of the children of beneficiaries are living in hardship.&quot;

It confirms my point rather than your own - it says that WFF would halve the number of children in poverty (help those on low wages) - but the problem would be still remain for beneficiary families. This is the position shown by the international standard survey showing WFF reduced the number of children in poverty. 

Note - there is no direct connection between the number of beneficiary families and the number of fodd parcels as not all beneficiary families have resorted to this help and nor are the number of food parcels to those without children identified.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your 5.07pm link says </p>
<p>&#8220;While the Working for Families package will lift half of these out of poverty, the Child Poverty Action Group&#8217;s evaluation of Working for Families clearly shows that around 175,000 children are being left behind.</p>
<p>These are the children of beneficiaries who do not meet the criteria to benefit from the package. Seventy-five per cent of the children of beneficiaries are living in hardship.&#8221;</p>
<p>It confirms my point rather than your own &#8211; it says that WFF would halve the number of children in poverty (help those on low wages) &#8211; but the problem would be still remain for beneficiary families. This is the position shown by the international standard survey showing WFF reduced the number of children in poverty. </p>
<p>Note &#8211; there is no direct connection between the number of beneficiary families and the number of fodd parcels as not all beneficiary families have resorted to this help and nor are the number of food parcels to those without children identified.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/comment-page-2/#comment-43876</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 04:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=12876#comment-43876</guid>
		<description>okay found two more:

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/789395

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/news/print.cfm?objectid=10411793&amp;pnum=2

can&#039;t seem to find the actual report that diane robertson wrote - it maybe on the child poverty action group website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>okay found two more:</p>
<p><a href="http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/789395" rel="nofollow">http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/789395</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/news/print.cfm?objectid=10411793&amp;pnum=2" rel="nofollow">http://www.nzherald.co.nz/news/print.cfm?objectid=10411793&amp;pnum=2</a></p>
<p>can&#8217;t seem to find the actual report that diane robertson wrote &#8211; it maybe on the child poverty action group website.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/comment-page-2/#comment-43874</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 04:07:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=12876#comment-43874</guid>
		<description>SPC - have managed to rummage up one article http://www.nzherald.co.nz/child-poverty-action-group/news/article.cfm?o_id=600551&amp;objectid=10391137&amp;pnum=0

the rest is up to you! cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SPC &#8211; have managed to rummage up one article <a href="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/child-poverty-action-group/news/article.cfm?o_id=600551&amp;objectid=10391137&amp;pnum=0" rel="nofollow">http://www.nzherald.co.nz/child-poverty-action-group/news/article.cfm?o_id=600551&amp;objectid=10391137&amp;pnum=0</a></p>
<p>the rest is up to you! cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/comment-page-2/#comment-43872</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 04:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=12876#comment-43872</guid>
		<description>SPC Yes I do - I have quoted the stats heaps. Most recently Auckland CIty Mission have reported the increases since 1999. They commented in 2007 on how WFF has not made any difference despite being in place for 3 years. I didn&#039;t save the link so just google it and it will come out. There&#039;s loads and loads and loads of stats that show how food parcels have doubled, sometimes tripled throughout the country in the last 10 years - all before the recession.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SPC Yes I do &#8211; I have quoted the stats heaps. Most recently Auckland CIty Mission have reported the increases since 1999. They commented in 2007 on how WFF has not made any difference despite being in place for 3 years. I didn&#8217;t save the link so just google it and it will come out. There&#8217;s loads and loads and loads of stats that show how food parcels have doubled, sometimes tripled throughout the country in the last 10 years &#8211; all before the recession.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/comment-page-2/#comment-43871</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 04:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=12876#comment-43871</guid>
		<description>P.s A Mother - I agree with you especially re exempting GST from all raw/staple foods (raw + milk, cheese, butter, bread). Why is this so difficult? How come no one seems to be able to provide a good explanation as to why it is too difficult to do? If they can raise GST and have things like interest exempt from GST then why not change the law to exempt raw/staple food items?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.s A Mother &#8211; I agree with you especially re exempting GST from all raw/staple foods (raw + milk, cheese, butter, bread). Why is this so difficult? How come no one seems to be able to provide a good explanation as to why it is too difficult to do? If they can raise GST and have things like interest exempt from GST then why not change the law to exempt raw/staple food items?</p>
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		<title>By: SPC</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/comment-page-2/#comment-43870</link>
		<dc:creator>SPC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 04:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=12876#comment-43870</guid>
		<description>Rebecca have you any evidence that the increase in food parcels was to children with families? No.

Was it old people facing rising power bills, was it the rising numbers on IB and SB? 

And one suspects that where families were involved it was families on benefits - whereas low wage families were benefitting from WFF - WHICH TOOK MANY FAMILIES OUT OF POVERTY, the others were facing rising costs without as much extra help (unless they found jobs).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rebecca have you any evidence that the increase in food parcels was to children with families? No.</p>
<p>Was it old people facing rising power bills, was it the rising numbers on IB and SB? </p>
<p>And one suspects that where families were involved it was families on benefits &#8211; whereas low wage families were benefitting from WFF &#8211; WHICH TOOK MANY FAMILIES OUT OF POVERTY, the others were facing rising costs without as much extra help (unless they found jobs).</p>
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		<title>By: Spud</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/comment-page-2/#comment-43869</link>
		<dc:creator>Spud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 04:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=12876#comment-43869</guid>
		<description>:-D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <img src='http://blog.labour.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/03/31/time-to-reduce-the-gap-between-rich-and-poor/comment-page-2/#comment-43868</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 03:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=12876#comment-43868</guid>
		<description>Spud!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spud!!!!</p>
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