Here we go again – divide and rule tactics that reek of the National Party…’let’s turn one New Zealander against another so they forget to hold us accountable for anything’.
I’m referring to the article in the Dom Post this morning – ‘Leader threatens Hikoi if Pacific funds cut’. The title is ok and the proposed course of action is fine but the article and statements left me concerned.
JR Pereira and former All Black Michael Jones say the Govt needs to focus more resources on the PI community, not fewer. Apparently JR said that MPIA’s buding of 7.6 million was not fair compared with Te Puni Kokiri’s $173m budget for Maori. The issue should not be about how much less Pacific are getting than Maori - If Pacific people were polled tomorrow, I doubt very much that they would advocate for cutting the budget to TPK in order to lift the funding to MPIA.
The Government needs to find the money from other places - here’s two ideas:
1. Take the $35 million that they directed to PRIVATE SCHOOLS and redirect that to MPIA and/ or education initiatives that are actually proven to work
2. Take the $62 million that they plan to spend on the ‘doomed to fail’ National Party Standards in schools and redirect that to MPIA and/ or initiatives in education that are actually proven to work
The other thing National needs to do, is put someone in the role of Minister of Pacific Island Affairs who actually geninuely cares about the plight of Pacific people – this person doesn’t necessarily have to be Pacific (Phil Goff did a great job when Minister of Pacific Island Affairs as did Mark Gosche and Winnie Laban) – but it does need to be someone who is experienced, has influence in their caucus and takes the portfolio SERIOUSLY. The Ministry has the people, expertise and passion to serve Pacific People and NZ effectively but it is lacking in funding and also political nous.
The National Government have largely ignored Pacific peoples over the course of their 18 months in power – meanwhile our levels of underemployment have gone through the roof; our thriving Creative Arts industry is being threatened; our access to quality and affordable health and education are being undermined and our voice at decision making tables is being minimalised.
It has taken so much work for our Pacific communities to make the strides that we have made (we have by no means reached nirvana but we were at least moving forward under Labour) and now National is guiding us backwards incrementally step by step by step…..
Michael Jones is quoted as saying - ”The brown tail must be shortened, not be lengthened. It must be removed. We need to be more involved with decision-making. We must be part of the head and not the tail,” As a sportsperson and a human being I do hold respect for Michael but for goodness sakes – can he not see that it is the very Government that he continues to tout as being good for us Pacific people – that are ones leading us down a track that will place us back where we were at least 15 years ago?
Carmel – any idea how much revenue the hike of two and a half percentage points on GST will bring in on PRIVATE SCHOOL fees? Or is this irrelevant?
Do you think it will it be more or less than the additional $35 million they’ve given back into that sector?
If it’s more, will you accept that those who pay private school fees are net losers under the Nats and bury the ‘$35 million gift’ nonesense forever?
Would you also care to calculate and publish what the net saving to the public purse is of those who choose to send their children to private schools? (i.e. the savings on what the government would have to provide if all private school pupils came back into the public sector PLUS the total GST take from private school fees MINUS the amount ‘gifted’ to private schools by the government)?
George – If you think that you have an argument that’s worth responding to – then you do the research/ maths and tell me the answers to your questions. Then we’ll have a debate over whether or not supporting private education at the expense of public education is a worthy pathway for the National Government to follow.
As Mr Gallup would say : “I’ll take that as a Don’t Know then”!
And I’ll take the fact that you are incapable of substantiating your own claims as an indication that your arguments are redundant…checkmate!
Well, why bother finding out the consequences of our funding proposals in the first place aye? Private education is still education, not sure why it matters where the kids get it – the government doesn’t even have to come close to fully funding it!
Carmel
Can you not see that the $35mil paid to private schools was less than what would have had to have been paid if the private school students joined the public system?
Secondly, the $62mil you say is doomed is all in your head. Show me these figures as to why it is doomed to failure? As you say, substantiate your claims.
Ok:
Approx 31,000 independent school pupils.
Est $15,000 pa fees.
GST @ 12.5% = $58M GST @ 15% = $70M
So I’m wrong – the extra GST ($11M) won’t cover JK’s ‘gift’ to independent schools.
But still a generous contribution from those paying independent school fees, don’t you think?
Typical trolls. Hijack the post and divert from the essence of the topic under discussion! I wonder if they’re being paid because some appear to do nothing but sit in front of their computers all day trying to sabotage R.A. posts. Oh of course, they are only trying to introduce other viewpoints etc. I hear them say – yeah right.
Back to the topic:
Perhaps it’s time to remind Michael Jones and company of the
degrading or uncaring treatment to which Pacific Islanders have been subjected by previous National governments. The dawn raids of the late seventies and early eighties immediately come to mind…
Of course Anne, bringing up specific points that were raised in the original post is a very troll like behavior.
Carmel, why on earth are the taxpayers of New Zealand obliged to fund Pacific Islanders for anything?
The taxpayer should not be funding any person or group based on their race. If money has to go to the vulnerable, then it should be done on a needs basis, not skin colour or victim mindset.
Carmel, there are several things that come to my mind:
1. The Minister of Maori Affairs is in the Maori Party. Despite the Maori Party appearing as if they like Pacific Islanders, the reality is, is that in their eyes Pasifika people are pretty much just like everyone else. Are Pasifika people going to have rights under the new foreshore and seabed legislation – NO.
2. Then there’s Georgina TeHeuheu. Again Georgina appears to like Pasifika people, unfortunately though she’s a National cabinet minister who would be taking orders from above. Remember what happened to Georgina when she disagreed over Don Brash’s ‘iwi/kiwi’, he sacked her. She won’t be too bold this time.
So far Pasifika people are screwed, simply because there’s no one advocating for them. There’s not one Pasifika minister in this government! Not so under Labour.
3. As for the economic side of things, my only recommendation is to tax people. That’s right – not less tax, more tax. I can hear right-wingers bemoan how it will be hell-in-a-hand-basket if we do this. But, Tories, the purpose of tax is for the government to receive revenue to fund for initiatives. Even this National government’s doing this by raising GST – a form of tax!! I don’t hear any of you bemoaning that one.
4. What about the Ministry of Ethnic Affairs? Where is their funding at? Carmel I don’t disagree with your concern for Pasifika funding, but other ethnicities (mostly Asian) are another piece in the pie in all this. Considering that in the future most New Zealanders will have Asian blood in them, the MEA also needs to be looked at.
5. Last but not least is Michael Jones. Why is he a National man? Two reasons.
The first one is economical – Michael Jones is a businessman, Labour is the pits to people to like him. I don’t need to go any further.
The second reason is that Michael Jones is of the religious-right. These guys are heavy on social conservative issues: they’re pro-life; for Christianity everywhere; against homosexual issues (not just same-sex marriage); for harsher penalties, including the death penalty (personally I think this one is a contradiction). Being a Catholic, I’ve come across people who thought that Helen was the pits because she wasn’t a mother – this is symptomatic of the religious-right.
I hope that cleared things up a bit.
@ Kiwireader, what’s a “victim mindset”?
@ Martin, interesting post
@Anne – Hang in there.
For me, a victim mindset is in part where you believe you are owed something, as is the case with Carmel.
Saying things like “The National Government have largely ignored Pacific peoples over the course of their 18 months in power”, she perpetuates this mindset. Guess what, they must have ignored me too, because I haven’t had any special treatment either. But I’m not whinging about it.
The reason why NZ governments have had Pacific Island and Ethnic Ministries is to best look at how people of those ethnicities can get ahead. This in turn saves taxpayers dollars in the long run. For example, we wouldn’t have to spend more money on police, if Pacific Islanders and Asians weren’t committing crimes. I apologise Carmel if you think that I’m only making Pasifika people out to be criminals, that’s not what I’m getting at.
If we did what I assume Kiwireader wants to do, scrap these race-based ministries because Pacific Islanders and Asians are whinging, that wouldn’t work. This is because we would be putting everyone in the same basket, without looking at the differences in statistics between races, and thus not trying to solve the differences.
We are of different cultures. I don’t know why Kiwireader wants to paint everyone with the same brush. That’s just like saying that Catholics and Protestants are the same, when they’re not. If people accept that Catholics and Protestants are different (and I know that from personal experience), then why can’t people accept that we are of different cultures?
George 1
Carmel 0
Kiwireader – One size doesn’t fit all so its important to approach different sectors in our society in different ways. Pacific people have contributed to and continue to contribute to this country – its a pity that you feel so threatened by the idea of one group receiving differentiated support. If our Government supports all sectors of society (taking in to consideration that some require higher levels of support than others) – then the rewards for our country will be forthcoming. Each individual regardless of ethnicity; religion; age; sexual orientation etc – deserve the opportunity and support to reach their full potential. There is no one way in supporting people to do this – our Government needs to be responsive to difference and address needs accordingly – currently they don’t. Your Nat Govt would recognise all of this if they truly valued the uniqueness, contribution and potential of all sectors of our country (including Pacific). But…unfortunately they still suffer from a superiority complex – reflective of their outdated and tired colonial attitude – please get over it…your grandchildren will be embarrassed by your archaic views of the world.
Deleted. You are warned. Clare
Paul – George already lost…but good on you for trying to make him feel good about himself – what a good friend you are!
George 2
Carmel 0
Whoah calm down Carmel, don’t bring Kiwireader’s moko’s in to this. That’s their business if they’re embarassed or not embarassed with their koro, not yours.
Other than that you’re bang-on.
And Carmel, that “tired colonial attitude” is responsible for supporting the 14% of your people that are currently unemployed because the same colonial attitude dicates that we are all equal. If I were you, I’d make your case and you can while that attitude still prevails. With the changing ethnic makeup (there are now more Asian New Zealanders than Pacific Islanders) and even more earnest, competitive cultures coming to this country by the day, there is going to be even less sympathy, less support and more competition. That’s the reality you need to be preparing for. Life is going to get very difficult in this country, as it is in all other countries, if people refuse to get involved and wait for someone to fix their problems for them.
hey redlert, if you are going to dump my comments into the perpetual limbo of moderatiom then do the decent thing and be there and moderate.
this is modern communication that occurs often in realtime.
free speech is not just about wha you want to hear.
Us moderators do our best and are pretty good at keeping up with comments. But we’re busy MPs as well. Sorry for the delay. Clare
@ Paul 2.0. “there is going to be even less sympathy, less support and more competition.”
Doesn’t make for a good country does it Paul? That means that we are going to have to pay MORE tax, not LESS, because of the consequences. Examples are rises in crime, suicide, bad health.
KiwiReader said “The taxpayer should not be funding any person or group based on their race. If money has to go to the vulnerable, then it should be done on a needs basis, not skin colour or victim mindset.”
Carmen replied: “One size doesn’t fit all so its important to approach different sectors in our society in different ways”
I guess sectors are a subset of being universal so it is an improvement, since sectors with greater need are being identified, but it still doesn’t go far enough, does it? I mean throwing around government money to a sector doesn’t mean it’s going to go to those in most need. Even within that sector there are the haves and the have-nots and when there’s cash up for grabs, it will only be those with the connections and influence that have their hands out.
So instead of thinking in ’sectors’, why not narrow it down even further to individuals, or at most families? Then identify the problem or need and then target it by determining the indicators. Now this is by no means easy, nor is it a perfect science, but it is achievable with the amount of information flowing these days. And it has a much better chance of help arriving to those who most need it, than the lazy sector-based approach.
Carmel Sepuloni says: George already lost
I wasn’t viewing it as a game in which there’s a winner or loser. I was trying to engage meaningfully in the debate. Perhaps I was in the wrong place for that?
OK, so I ‘lost’ (in your view) when I estimated incorrectly that the additional amount ($11M) raised from school fees if GST goes to 15% would cover the $35M returned to independent schools by the government.
So I guess you must be right, Carmel. $35M is clearly the figure to talk about. And to use as a cheap and tacky soundbite with which to manipulate vulnerable people in support of your cause. The $400M which independent school fee payers save the taxpayer each and every year are of no importance whatsoever and should be totally ignored in your analysis.
Because it wouldn’t do for the facts to get in the way of a good slogan, would it?
Martin,
I agree, it is going to a different country than what we knew in a few years – a much harder, uncaring country, but that’s the trajectory considering where we are going. South Americans are filling up the wineyards and they have a ‘for my friends, everything! For everyone else, there’s the law!’ mentality that comes from living in places where failure isn’t an option, as such the Asians – failure just isn’t an option as the consequences of failure are horrific. The industrious Chinese, the entreprenial Koreans – try convincing them that their efforts should help pay for poor Pacific Islanders and should vote for parties that want to. They won’t and don’t.
Excuses aren’t accepted or entertained. This harder edge is creeping into NZ culture and slowly, politics, like it or not. That’s the reality of societies that undergo major socio changes , as it is everywhere else. Look at Britain, it’s just not the same place as it was even 10 years ago – Sharia systems are even being considered. If you’re uncomfortable with that reality, then you better get prepared for it.
@ Paul 2.0. I concede that you are right about where NZ’s heading. I refer to it in my first post, the Asian blood bit. And I think that you would agree with that, when you consider that Asia and Africa have already out-populated the West. (Womens lib-groups advocating abortion, you screwed that up). New Zealanders will inevitably be mostly Asian and African in the future, that’s a fact.
What I’m getting at Paul is when people refer to everyone being the same. We are the same NATIONALITY, we are not the same CULTURE. People like Kiwireader can’t get their heads around this. It’s as though they deny they are of settler heritage, and I find this insulting. Why deny something that happened? Ignorance is bliss.
As for NZ’s demographic changing, it might not all go downhill. There’s no doubt that there’s a very strong work ethic in the ethnicities that you mentioned. On the other hand, I’ve noticed that Asians and Africans are very accomodating to Maori and Pasfika people, considerably more so than white people. Perhaps that is the answer. Eastern cultures blending with Polynesian cultures, and so you get a super-race where there is higher achievement.
Hi Martin,
Interesting points and thanks for your thoughts.
In my experience with minority cultures who are recent immigrants, they can’t comprehend why Maori are accorded special status and quietly resent it or why NZ Law allows and tolerates violent crime when it can be specifically accorded to certain sections and areas of society and they link that to Pacific Islanders in particular.
You’ll be familiar with the Chinese ‘don’t cause trouble’ attitude, but when you get their tongue loosened and their real thoughts flowing, you’d be surprised when I’m not. The Chinese base their stereotypes strictly on financial success, so Europeans are accepted, non Europeans or non Han Chinese are not and are considered vastly inferior. Ever heard the phrase ‘5000 years of culture?’ The Chinese are very proud of their heritage and are very nationalist at their core. “Racism” as we know it in negative tones isn’t considered so outrageous in their culture, its considered far more natural in the bigger scheme of things.
Koreans are working hard to provide for their own and good on them – witness, go to a Korean restaurant and look for a non Korean working for them, you won’t. They have a heathly distrust of anyone non Korean.
Africans? Like Pacific Islanders struggling with acheivement, their kids are attracted to US style gansta culture and it’s just another problem brewing our tax dollars won’t fix.
I don’t know what the answer is to Pacific Islanders and Maori socio economic problems, but like in previous posts I firmly believe it isn’t central government. It starts in the home – if the parents provide at least the example of work and sacrifice and respect, its more likely the kids are going to be OK than not. That’s the only real difference between immigrant cultures in New Zealand that are succeeding and those that are not.
“In my experience with minority cultures who are recent immigrants, they can’t comprehend why Maori are accorded special status ” Then they need to be directed to our Partnership document with the Maori. It’s not like information about it is hard to access.
@ Tracey, bang-on. We need more education in regards to the Treaty and New Zealand history, paying close attention to settlement in the 19th century.
@ Paul. Interesting what you said about the Chinese. Not that I’m disagreeing, indeed I think you’re right. I know a couple of Chinese people and I think that they inhibit what you mentioned, not that they hate me of course.
As for what you mentioned about the Korean restaurant, give it time. As I mentioned earlier, different ethnicities will blend. Separate ethnic groups can’t be separate forever. Love (in terms of couples) will break this down. Indeed I’m a victim of this, I’m in love with an Asian woman myself!! (I’m white).
As for what you said about Africans, of course there’s a tribal element there. This is apparent in Africa, where the governments are corrupt. However I’m not sure if Africans in New Zealand are like that.
You mentioned about family improvement, you’re right. This is why I support the Whanau Ora scheme that the Maori Party wants to implement. Whanau Ora will enable for the first time to administer to Maori and possibly Pasifika families.
This will happen through Maori social services, who will be given more funding, but also more legal power (currently they don’t have this power) to help Maori families, and thus eradicate problems at the core roots. So the idea is, that if this became successful, we would save less money down the line addressing Maori on the welfare system, police, education etc.
I can hear the cries of separatism brewing. But we either change the system to address the issues at the core roots (and Maori do have worse statistics than non-Maori). Or we just keep spending money on Maori through the general system, and Maori degradation keeps piling up.
I am with kiwi reader..Why do people move from one country to another and then expect all sorts of free services and ”funding” from faceless , nameless strangers? The ”gummint” is giving out other people’s hard earned money.
How will any cultural group ever make progress if they are constantly looking to someonelse to provide for them?
I lived in my husband’s islamic country of origin for a number of years. We weren’t entitled to as much as a free roll of toilet paper. It was ‘’sink or swim.” Sink or swim is a law of nature. Endless handouts is abject foolishness.