Comments on: How to cheapen the Maori Flag

By: GPT

GPT — Fri, 05 Feb 2010 13:06:56 +0000

2. Good point. I suspect most people would be dismayed if that was the case/result.
7. Another good point – has been interesting hearing some of the other stories behind various flags that are out there. The United Tribes flag, particularly, seems to have a great deal of meaning and historical significance. I would have to say, rightly or wrongly, that I find the Tino Rangatiratanga more devisive than inclusive.
8. I guess it has to have a cost. Profiteering would be unfortunate however (and I am not accusing anyone of that).
9. No. Key did the right thing (and politically sensible). Representations were made about having a “Maori” flag fly and he gave it to the Maori Party to come back with a flag. Hone should have declared his interest from the start however.
10. No.
11. Bit early for the cheap shots – 9 long balance deleted

Into moderation troll Trevor

By: Anton Craig

Anton Craig — Fri, 05 Feb 2010 02:38:45 +0000

Interesting to see a poll on yahoo news where 81% of 5500 people say the flag shouldn’t be copyrighted because “it belongs to New Zealand”. Wasn’t that long ago people were complaining because it was “a sign of protest and divisiveness”.

By: Tigger

Tigger — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:36:01 +0000

A flag is not a book or a painting or a logo. It has a meaning that attaches to it. I am not surprised no one considered copyright issues during consultation. That process was rushed and cursory at best (anyone think of consulting urban Maori?). But seems to me any flag is about mana. And to avoid problems we need rules about its use. This will likely take a law change.

By: Anton Craig

Anton Craig — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:10:38 +0000

And about Maori support for Labour, can you provide the stats prior to the Seabed and Foreshore Act and the formation of the Maori Party? Labour may well have still been in government if it hadn’t been for this.

By: Anton Craig

Anton Craig — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:06:22 +0000

No, not at all, Kelvin. My point was that Key’s attacks are likely to be premature, therefore opportunistic. As I say, I’m guessing completely, but given the likelihood of how all of this arose, as pointed out also by Lucy Stewart, it’s Key’s cheap shots at Hone without getting his views that took me. He needs the Maori Party but he still needs to make sure people know his views on where he believes the “rightful” place of Maori is, and this issue was an opportunity to do just that. Like I said, given the history of it all, I wouldn’t be surprised if Hone agreed that as the flag has arrimay well be grounds for letting IP protections slide, if some of them don’t disappear automatically as the flag’s significance increases. Ewan Morris makes an interesting point too. If IP rights do continue regardless of the flag’s status, then I think this must be seen as wrong and that when a particular point is reached in terms of official recognition then there must be a corresponding reduction in IP. Ewan’s point, however, begs the question about whether the Tino Rangatiratanga flag has actually reached that status to justify demanding IP rights to be waived or removed? Key’s pot-shots at Hone ironically must mean he’s saying we’ve reached that place of official recogition already, even without acknowledgement in our Flags Act!!! Great point, Ewan!!!

By: Ewan Morris

Ewan Morris — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 20:37:36 +0000

The copyright in the Australian Aboriginal flag, which is officially recognised in the Flags Act 1953 (Cth) as a “flag of Australia”, is owned by its designer, Harold Thomas. His copyright was recognised in the case of Thomas v Brown and Tennant [1997] FCA 215. This doesn’t seem to have caused any problems in Australia – but it does mean that Mr Thomas can charge a fee for commercial uses of the flag, or prevent such uses, as he did recently when Google wanted to use the flag as part of the Google logo for Australia Day: see http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/oh-dear-google-flagged-over-logo-dispute-20100126-mvhd.html

By: Kelvin Davis

Kelvin Davis — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 20:16:05 +0000

It sounds like you’re trying to shut down discussion on this issue Anton. I want to hear people’s thought’s on the copyright/ IP of the flag. We’re entitled to ask questions, particularly if not all was revealed at the consultation hui. Did you attend any of those hui? Was it all made clear at the time about the copyright/ IP? If so, the 1000 (> 0.25% of all Maori) or so who submitted in favour of this flag are obviously fine with it all. Would they still have been fine with it if they had of known? If it wasn’t all made clear, why wasn’t it? Perfectly legitimate questions to ask. Derision? We are 38% support from Maori in the latest poll, up 12, equal with Maori Party who are down 12. The Maori Party is part of the government. A government is only as strong as an opposition who are prepared to ask the difficult questions.

By: Lucy Stewart

Lucy Stewart — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 20:03:55 +0000

“Do people think it was it right that a flag with intellectual property rights and copyright issues was taken around and promoted as a flag for all?”

It’s not like Creative Commons licences existed when the flag was created, and copyright is automatic in New Zealand – I very much doubt there was any sort of deliberate plot! That doesn’t mean it would be ethically dubious to now attempt to assert control over the use of and/or profits from the flag on the grounds that it’s copyrighted. But it seems much more likely to me that no-one thought about it until recently. (Malice, incompetence, etcetera.)

By: Anton Craig

Anton Craig — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:59:38 +0000

Who knows, Kelvin? And as you say, you don’t either. If there wasn’t, does this give Key licence to go slagging Hone without discussing it with him first? Does this mean Key’s attacks were not opportunistic Hone-bashing? Joining Key’s rampage ain’t gonna help Labour, and will make Goff’s job of rebuilding links with Maori even more difficult, that’s if Goff’s remarks were genuine of course. Keep it up, keep it up, Kelvin, and see the derision your party will continue to receive.

By: Kelvin Davis

Kelvin Davis — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:38:22 +0000

Do people think it was it right that a flag with intellectual property rights and copyright issues was taken around and promoted as a flag for all?

I never attended any of the flag consultation hui – was the IP/ copyright issue clearly explained to everyone before they voted or made submissions?

Did the TPK report make mention of the IP/ copyright issues? If not, why not?