Last week I spent an evening visiting Heretaunga College night classes. When I organised a public meeting here in Upper Hutt some weeks ago many of the people who came along were keen for me to visit their classes so that I could see for myself what they were talking about. It was a real eye opener and upon leaving I was even more convinced that the National government’s decision to cut ACE funding is the wrong one.
The first course was an Intermediate Spreadsheets course. I spoke to just about every participant and they all had very good reasons for wanting to do the course, most of them were work-related. Interestingly, several were small business people who were trying to upskill. One guy I spoke to, a painter, told me that most of his customers now expect to get their quotes electronically. The old carbon copy quote book doesn’t cut it anymore, so he was doing the spreadsheet course so he could do email quotes.
The next one I visited was an Introduction to Computers course. Almost everyone there told me they were doing the course for work-related reasons, either so they could keep their job, get a better one, or in some cases, get off the benefit. Looking through their workbook I fail to see how anyone could argue that courses like this one don’t improve literacy and numeracy skills. They certainly aren’t hobby courses.
I visited a Day Skipper course for people who were interested in boating. Now this does fit the definition of a hobby course, but it’s actually providing a valuable public service. Which would you rather see the taxpayer subsidising, a cheap course or more search and rescue operations when amateur boaties get themselves into trouble?
My visits to a floral arranging course, a stained glass window course and a Spanish course all reinforced the tremendous social value night classes bring to the wider community. People felt connected to others. Several mums told me how important their one evening a week out of the house is for their mental health!
The National government have got this badly wrong. Bill English knows the value of night classes, when he was railing against CPIT and Te Wananga o Aotearoa (yes, remember that?) he went to great lengths to tell people National wouldn’t touch night class funding. So what’s changed Bill?
It’s a great loss and they shouldn’t have touched it
It would be sad if hobby courses stopped running. They are a great way of trying new things and having fun. But the good news is, flower arranging classes will still exist once public funding is removed. They will simply be user-pays instead, just like every other hobby.
If you want hobby classes to be taxpayer-funded, where does one draw the line? Should model train collections be funded by the taxpayer? Personally, I love video games. Should video game classes be funded by taxpayers?
I think it’s best to stick with user-pays for non-essential services. And no one would call flower arranging an essential service.
Grrr it makes me so angry!
Surely if we have a productivity problem then the upskilling people can do through night classes is one of the best ways to tackle it..
Night classes are not always hobby classes…. Some people need them… I’m pretty sure these cuts will affect english as a second language classes which help people learn english… Upskilling people that can’t go to school anymore shouldn’t be seen as a cost, it’s an investment that NZ needs to make because it’s a net immigration (not to be confused with emigration) country…
Yes Nicola Wood, we ca upskill people so that their new flower-arranging skills can tackle low productivity.
Hobbies aren’t productive, they’re hobbies and should be funded by individuals.
@The Eagle – many of these so called ‘hobby’ courses actually led people onto other avenues of work/career. The value to society and to the revenue we get as a country from future tax earnings that derive from these courses are difficult to gauge, but from the research and anecdotal info I have seen, they do make a difference. Sometimes, we need to look a little outside the square to understand the value something has for our country – otherwise we shortchange ourselves and our future productivity. The hobby ‘boating’ course mentioned above is one such course that would have an obvious savings if you can lift the ‘blue tinge’ from shrouding a different view of the value of something like this. Not everything should be seen from purist POV.
Cuts to night classes, Cuts to TIA, Uni’s becoming selective on who they let in and hitting Solo parents hard as they know we may not be able to afford it now so we have to fight harder just for a chance… What next? Once past a certain age (I’m only 30 but seem to be past the age of securing a better future according to govt policies) we can’t obtain a better life? That’s how it seems at the moment.
http://exmssear.org/exmss-press-releases/
Welcome to the world of National. In my mind, you need to be a certain type of kiwi to belong and suceed in this new world – if you are well off – welcome – if you may make a tonne of money later – welcome – if you are considered one of the ‘drains’ of society, then we don’t care about you and we will do all we can to make your life harder.
What frustrates me is that many of these nats have forgotten where they come from, and that there are a number of things that make a difference to helping people rise above and suceed, but all I see is one policy or directive after another that squashes the people that need it most. I only can hope that the kiwis that were blinded by the promise of change will wake up and smell the smoke – because every cut that hurts those who need the most help, will eventually turn the smoke into a blaze that burns the house down.
Actually, hobbies tend to be the most productive thing known. People who are interested and passionate about their work tend to do it better and from that we get discoveries and other advantages. Einstein started mathematics as a hobby when young.
Take it you’ve never been to a wedding or a funeral or given flowers to a loved one then.
After my Father spent half a million on his yacht he was delighted the taxpayer would cover his navigation courses, as a retiree he now will have to pay his own way after contributing for 45 years to the public purse.
As far as those self employed trademan there are enough tutorials that come with the software for them to figure it out themselves.
My father has navigated himself to his strand of vines in the Champagne valley to collect this years crop. Thanks to the worthwhile investment in night classes all went well, hard to put a price on that.
@David …there are enough tutorials that come with the software for them to figure it out themselves..
What nonsense, they arent designed for first timers. They are more for experienced people ( first timers wouldnt even know how to start these things) who forget some details or when you have to relearn during upgrade hell
As this string shows, some of us are just mean, selfish or bloody minded and don’t want to do anything for anyone else if we can help it. Sadly, this viewpoint extends to lots more than support for night classes. The long-ago complaint by Muldoon about those he called ‘Greedies’ was ironically on the money, though largely from his side of the political spectrum. What hope for the future if this is as good as it gets?
@The Eagle – I think people improving their computer skills, speed reading, communication skills etc (the list goes on) are all very helpful to productivity. Not to mention how much more productive workers with full, purposeful and happy lives are.
Hobby classes are not the most effective means of upskilling – there are no standards. There was a class in my area for ‘basic accounting’. At the end of the course, the participants received a certificate for ‘passing’ the course. There was no exam or assessment. They received the certificate effectively on the basis that they had enrolled in the course. Most misleading to potential employers and not particularly fair on those who have passed genuine courses and received genuine certificates of achievement.
@Paul, there is no question that some hobby courses can lead to people gaining employment or some other benefit etc. I think everyone agrees the classes are good. But I disagree that they should be taxpayer-funded. After all, you haven’t answered the question of where to draw the line – would a video game class be considered worthy of taxpayer funding? Some people do make a living out of winning video game tournaments, so maybe it is worth funding?
I think it is most consistent to draw the line at our primary and secondary school education systems, and leave the other courses to be user-pays. After all, most of them are still fairly affordable.
@Draco, my question to you is the same – video games are an extremely popular hobby, do you feel these should be subsidised?
@Galeandra, I don’t think it’s fair to call National selfish. There is a limited supply of revenue, some things have to be cut. This is one of the less essential things government can fund, so night classes have been chosen. They will be fine under user-pays.
Also @Nicola Wood, and some others who have made similar arguments – you seem to be targeting only the most practically “useful” courses for your advocacy – what about flower arranging, moroccan cooking, silk scarf-dying etc which have been cited as hobby courses rather than practical courses? Where do you draw the line?
What people need to realise is that any kind of upskilling is an investment, which generally requires $$. This will ultimately benefit them in the form of a better paid job etc.
If people need these skills to gain employment, perhaps WINZ should be responsible for providing these, rather than community organisations.
You want to learn how to serve your clients better with electronic quotes? It is your responsibility to learn these skills at your own expense.
If people need a break from their homes for their mental health, then what next? Taxpayer funded facials and trips to Paris? (oh wait…)
In about a decade’s time, a Member of Parliament will draw attention to the waste of govt investment in idle school buildings after 4pm
Someone will come up with a novel idea about that time:
NIGHT CLASSES!
[...] have a $10 billion deficit, and Labour still wants to spend even more. And Chris Hipkins details the priorities: I visited a Day Skipper course for people who were interested in boating. Now this does fit the [...]
It’s absurd that people keep talking as though night classes wouldn’t exist if they weren’t taxpayer-funded. If people don’t value night classes enough to pay a little bit of money to attend them, they obviously aren’t so great. But it is more likely that people will be happy to pay a bit of money to keep attending the classes they enjoy, just as they pay to go to the cinema (which manages fine without being funded by hard-working taxpayers).
Everybody wins with user-pays night classes!
Keep up the good work – the country will certainly repay you at the next election for sticking up for our rights to attend floral arranging and stain window courses.
@The Eagle
I cannot afford to go to the pictures. I haven’t gone in 18mths, since I became single mother. Maybe if there was enough housing nz houses around so I won’t be paying 300 market rent. Other things come first. I’m lucky that my children go to PlayCentre so I get to met people there but night classes for many gave them a chance not to feel so isolated. Not everyone (like me) wants to go to a noisy pub where everyone is drunk to meet people. The skills that these classes offered have now gone. Touch typing, computer skills, the list goes on. This along with the TIA and harder to get into uni is making it harder to upskill for people that want to. The people that don’t have much money to pay more but want to upskill to be able to earn more. These are the people that are going to get hurt.
Brilliant. Labour thinks more money on flower arranging.
I hope this makes the manifesto
The video games? – no, but I wouldn’t have any difficulty with courses on how to program and the tools to do so being subsidised.
No they don’t – everybody loses except the top 1%. That has been shown time and time again. The economics that you’re basing your assumptions on are wrong. This has also been proven several times by several people over the last century or two. If they were any good then the present recession would have been predicted by more than 50% of the economists in the world. In reality, 12 non-mainstream economists managed it and not a single mainstream economist did.
@A Mother: you want to upskill so that you can earn more money – i.e. for your own benefit. Why should taxpayers pay for that?
@Draco – try “the top 99%” instead.
@ Eagle
Let the tax payer pay to recruit professionals from overseas instead. That will cost more than 3000 TIA, a year to hire people to recruite, and to entice teachers and nurses over here, TIA is hardly ever used up anyway and just disappears off your file. I’m getting a student loan and the 1000 for related costs, but childcare is $425 a week and I would have to pay $100 of that if I was on a training placement, thats a huge chunk out of benefit. I was a tax payer too. I worked right up till 2 DAYS before I had my oldest, who is now 2 1/2. I didn’t ask their father to take off after 10yrs. If it was the other way around he would be the hero, not me for holding it altogether. I have just reg with an In home daycare service but its the wrong time of year. Maybe early next year after holidays, then I may not need the TIA, but only pays $6ph per child. I just want off the benefit but want something secure for my family as I need to know that I’m going to be able to support them the following week, the following month, the following year… Have had enough of insecurity and the worry that goes with it.
Would say more but my children have woken up.
Stop TIA! recruite from overseas instead. It will cost tax payers more. THATS THE WAY TO GO! More to recruite and more payment for the people unemployed! GO NZ!
God there is some whining on this thread. If you want to ‘upskill’ on flower arranging go and hit up the local library and teach yourself. I hear it’s treasure trove of information.
As to complaining about limitations to university courses its about time. Not everyone is academically equipped to engage in university study and if you’ve been rejected because you haven’t made the cut maybe it’s currently beyond your ability. Standards have to be maintained.
I haven’t been declined yet. I have applied.
I just cannot afford to study and have my children looked after even with the student loan. I passed the papers suggest this year by the uni for prep for next year but now the TIA has stopped, I was sitting on a pass before I entered the exams. Both papers can be cross credited. I needed to prove to them and myself I could do it. They needed to see that I can study at that level and have now done that. I am just not able to afford to do this now. This is why I’m upset.
If I go part time, I may not be able to get the 1000 for course related costs. I would have to find 1700 somewhere. If I go full time I will need to come up with an extra 2-3 thousand out of my pocket. I am more than able to do the study. I’m just worried I won’t get in as it hard to hand over control of your future to someone I don’t know. I used to get like this before interviews too.
But my situation is different from night class cuts. They should never have been touched either
“you seem to be targeting only the most practically “useful” courses for your advocacy – what about flower arranging, moroccan cooking, silk scarf-dying etc which have been cited as hobby courses rather than practical courses? Where do you draw the line?”
Just a couple of points on the above: (as to where these classes could lead someone)
1. Moroccan cooking – opening a new cafe or small business based on the skills learnt
2. Silk scarf-dying – someone may become the next Trelise Cooper of scarf making, making money and paying taxes from that…
3. Flower arranging – a new start up catering for weddings, funerals, etc…
AND, if someone learns a new skill, the social and emotional benefits, and therefore the benefits for society, are boundless. Not to mention the brain development etc…
You never know where someone will be led to from learning a new skill – you never know how someone’s mental health can be improved or how a society or family can benefit from AEC – to suggest that people are whining about it is ridiculous – what this thread instead shows, is that there is quite an outcry about this particular cut. BUT do we see the Nats listening – no – because they think they know what is best.
I pay heaps of tax, and I am quite ok with it going to supporting the wider community – what I do not approve of is funding the ‘haves’ to send their children to private education – and don’t come back to me with how private schools ‘save’ the public money. Private schools are not any better than our public system, and its a choice that people make. Just like it is a choice for me to have private health care – I don’t seem to recall 30mill going in to ‘subsidise’ private health care – and for the record, I would not support that.
I am not above cuts for the wider good – but I have a real problem with cuts that do not make sense and hurt the people who need them the most. Frankly, if Tolley wants to make savings in Education, she should actually ask the sector where the cuts could come from – not that that has happened. Educators are not stupid – they understand that there is not an open cheque book. If she was not such an arrogant fool she would realise that if she actually engaged with the sector, it would be a heck of a lot easier. On the subject of education cuts – the PM pumps millions of dollars into PE – but once again, NO consultation with the sector to see if that was a sensible idea – just another thing dumped on the system with no thought of if its needed or wanted.
Pay for flower arranging classes out of the government’s magical pot of gold, right?
Wow, first a circus, now a pot of gold
I used to have a money tree but sadly it was made from metal and had coins glued to it. It never grew.
LOL
– It can’t be easy being a solo mother, I hope things work out for you.
It’s good to see such stoicism from Kiwis. According to Treasury we’re looking at a debt of 223% of GDP by 2050 and at least 10 years of deficits and what am I hearing: I want my flower arranging classes. I ask you, have we become so addicted to having the state provide every necessity that in this time of crisis all we can think about is ourselves and what we deserve. What a depressing society we live in if the posters on this thread are a indication of it.
Maybe Bernard Hicky was right. Time to leave for Oz.
Thanks Spud. I’m sure they will somehow, I love being a mother.
Night classes I have done:
– squash
– kayaking
– yoga (hilarious)
– gun safety
I wouldn’t categorise any of them as job-enhancing. Actually I didn’t even know until a few years ago that they were taxpayer-funded. Users are charged for the courses. I thought they were just fundraising mechanisms for the schools that held them.
Kayaking could be good if you wanted to be an adventure tour guide and gun safety would be good if you wanted to open a gun shop.
With the greatest respect @JD, I am well aware that we need to pull our belts in – but given the amount of wastage in this country, and the Inefficiencies of various systems, there are other ways to cut funding. I don’t think you have any idea what kinds of cuts are being made or policy promises being kept that cost money and which sectors have not been consulted on. Did you not read my last section – ask sectors where the savings are to be made – that way people are engaged in the process and it is something done with them not to them.
As for Australia – no argument there – the way the Nats are going the more chance there is that more kiwis will end there. If you feel hard done by in NZ, you have options. Myself, while tempted, feel it is more important to stay ‘home’ and do what I can to ease the load on the communities being done over by the Nats. As a kiwi, I have a vested interest in making sure that the future for my family is a solid one.
@JD
Yes academic restrictions ok. Restrictions because of the cut of TIA (We now considered more likely to drop out due to finances) not good. Restriction on studying part time, also not good.