Comments on: The elephant in the room http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/10/21/the-elephant-in-the-room/ A blog written by Labour MPs Sat, 11 Feb 2012 22:44:05 +1300 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: What’s going on inside MED? « Red Alert http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/10/21/the-elephant-in-the-room/comment-page-1/#comment-23714 What’s going on inside MED? « Red Alert Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:06:53 +0000 http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=5660#comment-23714 [...] that no-one knows what to do about Telecom. More on this later, as the elephant in the room could turn the whole broadband project into a big white [...] [...] that no-one knows what to do about Telecom. More on this later, as the elephant in the room could turn the whole broadband project into a big white [...]

]]> By: Russell http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/10/21/the-elephant-in-the-room/comment-page-1/#comment-14785 Russell Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:03:33 +0000 http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=5660#comment-14785 I'm for the government buying Chorus and then rolling it in with Kordia, that other publicly owned communication and broadcasting network / infrastructure type company. Between the two of them they can roll out various combos of fibre/cable/wireless infrastructure and wholesale solutions for anyone to compete over. And if Telecom won't split out Chorus, then amp up Kordia to be able to take them on. I’m for the government buying Chorus and then rolling it in with Kordia, that other publicly owned communication and broadcasting network / infrastructure type company. Between the two of them they can roll out various combos of fibre/cable/wireless infrastructure and wholesale solutions for anyone to compete over.
And if Telecom won’t split out Chorus, then amp up Kordia to be able to take them on.

]]> By: Andrew Straw http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/10/21/the-elephant-in-the-room/comment-page-1/#comment-14759 Andrew Straw Thu, 22 Oct 2009 08:20:12 +0000 http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=5660#comment-14759 Martin: Have you actually used SkypeOut on a Wi-Fi phone? If not, you should try that before you knock it. Seems it actually works better than over a PC. The phone connects directly to your router or to the hotspot. As for privacy, it may be helpful to know that Skype has a privacy statement: http://www.skype.com/intl/en/legal/privacy/general/ You know, I have zero confidence in the privacy laws of NZ once my call leaves NZ borders. Same with my emails. In fact, the United States and other countries routinely tap international calls and email messages. Every hear of Echelon and Carnivore? Might want to look them up. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/1357513.stm My view is that if your broadband is choppy and can't handle VOIP and WiFi phones, this is your ISP's fault, not the fault of those services. These companies would not be around if they were poor services. The question you have to ask is why it doesn't work well where you are. Martin:
Have you actually used SkypeOut on a Wi-Fi phone? If not, you should try that before you knock it. Seems it actually works better than over a PC. The phone connects directly to your router or to the hotspot.

As for privacy, it may be helpful to know that Skype has a privacy statement:

http://www.skype.com/intl/en/legal/privacy/general/

You know, I have zero confidence in the privacy laws of NZ once my call leaves NZ borders. Same with my emails.

In fact, the United States and other countries routinely tap international calls and email messages. Every hear of Echelon and Carnivore? Might want to look them up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/1357513.stm

My view is that if your broadband is choppy and can’t handle VOIP and WiFi phones, this is your ISP’s fault, not the fault of those services. These companies would not be around if they were poor services. The question you have to ask is why it doesn’t work well where you are.

]]> By: David Farrar http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/10/21/the-elephant-in-the-room/comment-page-1/#comment-14718 David Farrar Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:07:08 +0000 http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=5660#comment-14718 Umm when did the $340 million allocated to the BIF become $1 billion? Was there a Cabinet minute I missed? Umm when did the $340 million allocated to the BIF become $1 billion? Was there a Cabinet minute I missed?

]]> By: Martin Kealey http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/10/21/the-elephant-in-the-room/comment-page-1/#comment-14635 Martin Kealey Thu, 22 Oct 2009 01:24:04 +0000 http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=5660#comment-14635 I find comparisons between mobile, fixed-lines, VOIP and Skype a bit annoying, because price isn't the only point of comparison. If you use Skype, you're paying zero (or very low) rates. But you have absolutely no guarantee of privacy, nor any come-back in New Zealand law. If you use a mobile, or one of the cheaper landline providers, then you're subject to packetization lag, which often leads to significant echo. Obviously some people don't notice a quarter of a second delay, or the echo, or don't care, but for some of us it makes the difference between being able to conduct a smooth conversation, or having a series of monologues, where lifetime-trained reflexes on "when to speak" drive both speakers into disjointed start-stop outbursts. "Why would anyone in their right mind use the standard services?" Easy: because we're FRUSTRATED with unusably laggy services, and getting rid of that frustration is easily worth the extra money. I find comparisons between mobile, fixed-lines, VOIP and Skype a bit annoying, because price isn’t the only point of comparison.

If you use Skype, you’re paying zero (or very low) rates. But you have absolutely no guarantee of privacy, nor any come-back in New Zealand law.

If you use a mobile, or one of the cheaper landline providers, then you’re subject to packetization lag, which often leads to significant echo.

Obviously some people don’t notice a quarter of a second delay, or the echo, or don’t care, but for some of us it makes the difference between being able to conduct a smooth conversation, or having a series of monologues, where lifetime-trained reflexes on “when to speak” drive both speakers into disjointed start-stop outbursts.

“Why would anyone in their right mind use the standard services?”

Easy: because we’re FRUSTRATED with unusably laggy services, and getting rid of that frustration is easily worth the extra money.

]]> By: Draco T Bastard http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/10/21/the-elephant-in-the-room/comment-page-1/#comment-14633 Draco T Bastard Thu, 22 Oct 2009 01:17:29 +0000 http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=5660#comment-14633 @ Andrew Straw And all that is why I say that the network should be fully government owned with competitive services on the network. We'd all be much better off. There is no such thing as competition in infrastructure. @ Andrew Straw

And all that is why I say that the network should be fully government owned with competitive services on the network. We’d all be much better off.

There is no such thing as competition in infrastructure.

]]> By: Andrew Straw http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/10/21/the-elephant-in-the-room/comment-page-1/#comment-14615 Andrew Straw Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:32:11 +0000 http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=5660#comment-14615 Well, if a person dropped the toll calls, Telecom charges $10 more a month for broadband. There is no reason to do that, however, since Telecom doesn't have a set fee for being with them. You can simply use VOIP or Wi-Fi phones. https://www.telecom.co.nz/broadband/select/1,10627,205836-204473,00.html?action=/plan&detail=8 So, you get rid of the phone line and you save $46, but then you lose access to the Telecom network. http://www.telecom.co.nz/homeline Unlike Slingshot, Telecom does not do "Naked DSL." You have to have a phone line and pay the $46 even if you don't want it. This is something government could do something about--and should! If there were a real wireless network in Dunedin, we could all be using Wi-Fi phones on it as well as our broadband. That way we could say stuff it to all the companies fleecing us a *minimum* of 44c per minute for calls and charging $50 or more for broadband each month. http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=485 http://www.belkin.com/skype/howitworks/ Using SkypeOut, it costs about 3c per minute to call a landline phone, and about 50c for a call to a mobile phone. 2degrees (the cheapest mobile provider) charges 44c for both landlines and mobiles. The real difference is calling overseas. If you are not in their preferred list of 21 countries (and Italy is not), it costs $1.44 per minute on 2degrees. 3c to an Italian landline using SkypeOut and a Wi-Fi phone looks pretty good. Telecom is not much better than 2degrees. The anytime plan costs 89c to an Italian landline and 99c to an Italian mobile. That's from a landline. Using a mobile, I am sure it costs *a lot* more, because I could not find pricing on Telecom's site. Whenever I can't find fundamental terms like this, I know I am going to get a really raw deal, so I stay away from it like it's poison. Jajah.com ends up being the best for a call to an Italian mobile phone from a landline here. 36c per minute. Unfortunately it seems like this one doesn't work with wi-fi phones. So the best I'm going to get is the Skype service. 3c and 50c. Skype also allows one to set up a local number in lots of countries, and then when your overseas friends/family call you, it is a local call for them. For one country this service costs about $5 a month. Given that my wife probably talks to her parents in Italy about 15 hours a month (900 minutes), 3c cents a minute is $27. Using Telecom this would be $800, and using 2degrees on the cell phone would be $1296. Holy smokes! One is 30x more expensive, and the other 48x. If her parents always called us on the local Italian number, it is only $5. Why would anyone in their right mind use the standard services? And let's not forget that calls from one Skype phone to another are 100% free of charge. So if your friend/relative has a Skype phone on and connected to a wireless router at their house, it is completely free. Imagine if all businesses and universities in NZ just started giving out Wi-Fi phones to all their staff to use at work. Imagine the savings! Want to talk about increased productivity? There are two sides to productivity. Increased output and lowered costs. The opportunity is there to shut out these outrageous gougers (traditional telecoms) and increase our productivity. Those savings could be going towards increased local wages rather than the overseas investors who own the telecoms. http://www.skype.com/intl/en/allfeatures/wifiphones/ Well, if a person dropped the toll calls, Telecom charges $10 more a month for broadband. There is no reason to do that, however, since Telecom doesn’t have a set fee for being with them. You can simply use VOIP or Wi-Fi phones.

https://www.telecom.co.nz/broadband/select/1,10627,205836-204473,00.html?action=/plan&detail=8

So, you get rid of the phone line and you save $46, but then you lose access to the Telecom network.
http://www.telecom.co.nz/homeline

Unlike Slingshot, Telecom does not do “Naked DSL.” You have to have a phone line and pay the $46 even if you don’t want it. This is something government could do something about–and should!

If there were a real wireless network in Dunedin, we could all be using Wi-Fi phones on it as well as our broadband. That way we could say stuff it to all the companies fleecing us a *minimum* of 44c per minute for calls and charging $50 or more for broadband each month.

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=485
http://www.belkin.com/skype/howitworks/

Using SkypeOut, it costs about 3c per minute to call a landline phone, and about 50c for a call to a mobile phone. 2degrees (the cheapest mobile provider) charges 44c for both landlines and mobiles. The real difference is calling overseas. If you are not in their preferred list of 21 countries (and Italy is not), it costs $1.44 per minute on 2degrees.

3c to an Italian landline using SkypeOut and a Wi-Fi phone looks pretty good.

Telecom is not much better than 2degrees. The anytime plan costs 89c to an Italian landline and 99c to an Italian mobile. That’s from a landline. Using a mobile, I am sure it costs *a lot* more, because I could not find pricing on Telecom’s site. Whenever I can’t find fundamental terms like this, I know I am going to get a really raw deal, so I stay away from it like it’s poison.

Jajah.com ends up being the best for a call to an Italian mobile phone from a landline here. 36c per minute. Unfortunately it seems like this one doesn’t work with wi-fi phones. So the best I’m going to get is the Skype service. 3c and 50c. Skype also allows one to set up a local number in lots of countries, and then when your overseas friends/family call you, it is a local call for them. For one country this service costs about $5 a month.

Given that my wife probably talks to her parents in Italy about 15 hours a month (900 minutes), 3c cents a minute is $27. Using Telecom this would be $800, and using 2degrees on the cell phone would be $1296. Holy smokes! One is 30x more expensive, and the other 48x. If her parents always called us on the local Italian number, it is only $5.

Why would anyone in their right mind use the standard services?

And let’s not forget that calls from one Skype phone to another are 100% free of charge. So if your friend/relative has a Skype phone on and connected to a wireless router at their house, it is completely free.

Imagine if all businesses and universities in NZ just started giving out Wi-Fi phones to all their staff to use at work. Imagine the savings!

Want to talk about increased productivity? There are two sides to productivity. Increased output and lowered costs. The opportunity is there to shut out these outrageous gougers (traditional telecoms) and increase our productivity. Those savings could be going towards increased local wages rather than the overseas investors who own the telecoms.

http://www.skype.com/intl/en/allfeatures/wifiphones/

]]> By: Clarke http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/10/21/the-elephant-in-the-room/comment-page-1/#comment-14608 Clarke Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:17:42 +0000 http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=5660#comment-14608 The other elephant in the room is that Telecom is largely an overseas owned corporation. Its investment strategies are shaped by the desire of US investors to maximise their ROI, not on what is best for New Zealand, so any decision to structurally separate and sell Chorus will be made only after Paul Reynolds has talked to those investors, and not simply because Joyce has a preferred approach. The other elephant in the room is that Telecom is largely an overseas owned corporation. Its investment strategies are shaped by the desire of US investors to maximise their ROI, not on what is best for New Zealand, so any decision to structurally separate and sell Chorus will be made only after Paul Reynolds has talked to those investors, and not simply because Joyce has a preferred approach.

]]> By: Matthew Holloway http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/10/21/the-elephant-in-the-room/comment-page-1/#comment-14598 Matthew Holloway Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:29:07 +0000 http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=5660#comment-14598 In the US home phone lines are dropping off sharply in favour of cellphones and home broadband. People can't justify spending money on something that can be replaced with VoIP, Skype, and Google Talk-type services that run over the internet, so it's inevitable for this to happen here too. In the US home phone lines are dropping off sharply in favour of cellphones and home broadband. People can’t justify spending money on something that can be replaced with VoIP, Skype, and Google Talk-type services that run over the internet, so it’s inevitable for this to happen here too.

]]> By: Andrew Straw http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/10/21/the-elephant-in-the-room/comment-page-1/#comment-14573 Andrew Straw Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:07:15 +0000 http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=5660#comment-14573 I am looking forward to a lot of things with 100Mbps broadband. 1. I'll hook my home network to my TV, attach a cam to the top, and be able to teleconference with my relatives in the US and Italy. Technically I can do this now, but the video is choppy, even using ADSL2+. 2. presumably we will have high or unlimited data caps. In order to take full advantage of video, caps must go. The speeds themselves will make mincemeat of the kind of caps we have today. 3. my family will be able to watch TV from my hometown in the States and we will be able to maintain our connections and fluency in Italian by getting current programs from Italy. Fast broadband is like SkyTV on megasteroids. If I want to learn Hungarian by watching their TV online, I will be able to do it. This is a world-wide phenomenon. It is bringing people together and allowing for safe conversations at a distance. There is something Nobel Peace Prize-y about it all. My view is that the government should fund fibre to every community, and then subsidise rollout of wireless broadband in each community. This is a temporary solution, because fibre to the home is the ultimate goal. But in the meanwhile, we can quickly get 100 Mbps to most people within a few short years -- definitely less than 10. The countries on the cutting edge already have that level of service. That's not what we should be aiming for in 10 years. Btw: is anyone lobbying Google to get Google Voice here? Give them a call, Clare. That service blows all our local telcos out of the water! Features (From Wikipedia): Google Voice has retained many of GrandCentral's features, with several additions. * A single Google number for all of the user's phones; * Free calls and SMS in the contiguous US and Canada; * Calling International phone numbers for as low as 0.01 USD per minute; * Call screening. Announce callers based on their number or by an automated identification request for blocked numbers; * Listen in on someone recording a voicemail before taking a call; * Block calls; * Send, receive, and store SMS online; * Answer an incoming call on any of your phones; * Phone routing. Choose which phones should ring based on who calls; * Forwarding phones; * Voicemail transcripts. Read voicemails online; * Listen to voicemail online or from a phone; * Receive notifications of voicemails via email or SMS; * Personalized greeting that vary greetings by caller; * The ability to forward or download voicemails; * Conference calling; * Record calls and store them online; * Switch phones during a call; * View the web inbox from a mobile device/phone; * Set preferences for contacts by group; and * Ability to change your number for a fee. You'd probably be paying $50 a month for everything that Google offers for free, and a lot of it you can't even get here at any price. Someone needs to be talking to them. While you're at it, get them to offer the service where you can read all those millions of books in NZ too. I am looking forward to a lot of things with 100Mbps broadband.

1. I’ll hook my home network to my TV, attach a cam to the top, and be able to teleconference with my relatives in the US and Italy. Technically I can do this now, but the video is choppy, even using ADSL2+.

2. presumably we will have high or unlimited data caps. In order to take full advantage of video, caps must go. The speeds themselves will make mincemeat of the kind of caps we have today.

3. my family will be able to watch TV from my hometown in the States and we will be able to maintain our connections and fluency in Italian by getting current programs from Italy. Fast broadband is like SkyTV on megasteroids. If I want to learn Hungarian by watching their TV online, I will be able to do it.

This is a world-wide phenomenon. It is bringing people together and allowing for safe conversations at a distance. There is something Nobel Peace Prize-y about it all.

My view is that the government should fund fibre to every community, and then subsidise rollout of wireless broadband in each community. This is a temporary solution, because fibre to the home is the ultimate goal. But in the meanwhile, we can quickly get 100 Mbps to most people within a few short years — definitely less than 10. The countries on the cutting edge already have that level of service. That’s not what we should be aiming for in 10 years.

Btw: is anyone lobbying Google to get Google Voice here? Give them a call, Clare. That service blows all our local telcos out of the water!

Features (From Wikipedia):
Google Voice has retained many of GrandCentral’s features, with several additions.

* A single Google number for all of the user’s phones;
* Free calls and SMS in the contiguous US and Canada;
* Calling International phone numbers for as low as 0.01 USD per minute;
* Call screening. Announce callers based on their number or by an automated identification request for blocked numbers;
* Listen in on someone recording a voicemail before taking a call;
* Block calls;
* Send, receive, and store SMS online;
* Answer an incoming call on any of your phones;
* Phone routing. Choose which phones should ring based on who calls;
* Forwarding phones;
* Voicemail transcripts. Read voicemails online;
* Listen to voicemail online or from a phone;
* Receive notifications of voicemails via email or SMS;
* Personalized greeting that vary greetings by caller;
* The ability to forward or download voicemails;
* Conference calling;
* Record calls and store them online;
* Switch phones during a call;
* View the web inbox from a mobile device/phone;
* Set preferences for contacts by group; and
* Ability to change your number for a fee.

You’d probably be paying $50 a month for everything that Google offers for free, and a lot of it you can’t even get here at any price. Someone needs to be talking to them. While you’re at it, get them to offer the service where you can read all those millions of books in NZ too.

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