Comments on: Ignore the spin: we all just got sold out by the Maori party. Again.

By: Cactus Kate

Cactus Kate — Thu, 17 Sep 2009 04:16:58 +0000

Charles is correct in his summation of the attitude of China, India and Brazil. Issue is of course none of these countries have made an ounce of effort to equally distribute their wealth amongst the poorer folk and while considered “third world” tell that to extremely wealth people or even the burgeoning middle classes.

China for example would be ruined by a welfare system similar to NZ’s or the US. Which is why they will never have it.

It is also the reason why they should be given absolutely no favours in terms of these targets. The leniency is only making the rich in those countries richer (which one wouldn’t necessarily have an issue with). But (minor deletion for questionable language Trevor) why “western countries” already burdened with welfare of their own people at the lower margins, should all financially support that as they are making fools of the rest of us claiming poverty. All three countries Charles mentioned there have plenty of wealth. It’s just all kept at one end of the spectrum.

By: Labour’s good faith on the ETS « Red Alert

Labour’s good faith on the ETS « Red Alert — Thu, 17 Sep 2009 00:18:07 +0000

[...] could not have made such a deal like that made between National and the Maori party. What we were prepared to negotiate was made clear in the Minority view in the ETS Select [...]

By: jabba

jabba — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:01:06 +0000

I agree with what you said Charles .. I have seen that those countries want the op to get out of their 3rd world status like the west have. I do feel for them. It’s a shame that to do so they will cause huge pollution in doing so. As I said, most of us have no idea what the answer is .. lets not destroy our own status in being leaders of change like Clark wanted us to be.

By: Charles Chauvel

Charles Chauvel — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:22:56 +0000

@jabba – you need to spend some time with people from China, India or Brazil. They ask why so much pressure should be brought to bear on them to reduce pollution while their living standards remain low – meaning that they will remain low – and while the developed world continues to decline to adopt meaningful reduction targets. Another reason for us to take action. We all agree that our industries – including farming – need ongoing support so we don’t export jobs and wealth until such time as all our trading partners have put a price on carbon. Some of us just don’t think that is likely to merit 40 more years of pretty generous taxpayer subsidy.

By: kaine T

kaine T — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 10:07:58 +0000

Firstly, can we stop equating the constituency of the Maori Party as the voice of Maori, it most certainly hasn’t, doesn’t and never will speak for me.

Charles, well done, having read the minority report and your comments beyond, you’ve absolutely demonstrated some immense backbone on this issue. It is such a shame the Maori Party cannot see beyond the first five minutes of anything. This process is particularly important for Maori interests.

The Maori Party’s faux concern for the poorest of us is a sham, they’ve done nothing but prolong the agony of already debilitating economic conditions and by signing up this deal have, like National, consigned those interests to the scrap heap in favor of those who have the loudest and best resourced voices.

Such a disappointment.

By: H. Fee

H. Fee — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:37:19 +0000

So Charles, what are Labour’s Maori MPS going to do about it then? The Maori Party has consistently failed its constituents on the big issues this term, and have allowed themselves to be distracted and placated by token gestures such as the Maori flag. The Maori Party have given some pretty big openings for someone to step in and take the lead on issues important to Maori, and, quite frankly, Labour has just not stepped up to the mark.

Auckland SC representation for Maori will be a big issue, as long as it stays in the media. Labour’s Maori MPs should be out there in Auckland offering their support and assistance, not quietly lobbying behind the scenes like the Maori Party. Perhaps an enquiry in to Maori representation on the SC should be held along similar lines to the banking enquiry – anything to keep the pressure on the Maori Party and the issue in the media. If you don’t, then this whole issue will be swept aside and forgotten about once the concessions that the Maori Party has gained on the foreshore and seabed issue are made public, and an opportunity will be lost.

Maori are quite happy to go along unquestioningly with Turia and Sharples, and generally believe that the Maori Party can do no wrong. To change this, you actually have to show Maori how the Maori Party has let them down, and this is what Labour should be doing.

By: jabba

jabba — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 07:29:18 +0000

American CLEAN ENERGY & security ACT .. wow, do China and India have one of those?

By: DeepRed

DeepRed — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 07:20:48 +0000

Right now our carbon policy is a car parked in the middle of a railway track. While we’re debating whether to push it forwards or backwards, there’s a TGV heading our way, and it’s called the American Clean Energy & Security Act.

By: jabba

jabba — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 04:42:05 +0000

look, we have about 4.5mil people in NZ .. I would say that there would be just a hundred or so who any idea about climate change, global warming .. whatever and yet if you read these blogs, newspaper articles and letters to the Ed you would get the impression that we are all experts.
This whole thing is pure politics. I will add that many of us aknowledge we can’t be seen doing nothing as the rest of the world will punish us in some way lets bite the bullet and sort something out.
I think the Nats were stupid not to bring in all parties and try and get the best ideas so they all have a sense of involvement to ensure each election doesn’t become a farce.
What is it about farmers that Labour people hate? I tell you what, if it wasn’t for them we would be stuffed.
Whatever system we come up with WE will pay. If the huge costs are paid by the big companies and farmers 2 things (no doubt there will be more than 2 but)will happen:
1/ Companies will go bust .. massive job losses
2/ higher prices for everything. Look what happened last year with dairy products going through the roof due to high off shore demand.
Most of us on this blog need a dose of get real.

By: Maynard J

Maynard J — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 03:30:35 +0000

There are two issues here. First and foremost has to be around whether you believe CO2 is a pollutant (viz. the concept of AGW). If you do not, then the idea of an ETS is fundamentally flawed, and the only reason yo would support one is a pragmatic one: protecting interests.

If you do consider AGW a threat, then you will consider CO2 a pollutant and will most likely want an ETS (or carbon tax)that will reduce emissions overall.

The ETS foisted upon us by National and the Maori Party will achieve neither. It will allow CO2 pollution to continue largely unabated, and be a joke internationally, while costs are all socialised and profits made are privatised.

If you are talking about general “pollution” then there are other measures we would do better to pursue – watse and pollution levies, and waste repatriation regulations that will transfer the cost of consumption on to the consumer. A decent ETS is only designed to do this for a certain type of pollutant. Our one transfers it to the taxpayer.