After twenty years of research internationally and seven years of debate in NZ, pressure from both experts and politicians (especially Kedgely and Hutchinson) a decision was made to put Vitamin B into bread.
It increases the cost of bread by about 25c/person year. 57 countries including the USA have mandatory fortification.
It stops some neural tube defects including spinda bifida. Without it babies die. About 40 a year are aborted. Those who live cost the health sector about $400,000 each $400,000 per year each.
The Prime Minister’s science advisor who is an expert in the area supports fortification and rejected ludicrous claims from Key that it causes cancer.
A wee bit of pressure from the grocery and bakers’ lobbyists (allegedly Carrick Graham and Mathew Hooton) and Key folded.
One of the responsibilities one has as a leader is to stand up against monied interests and for all New Zealanders including those yet to be born.
Key has failed this test.
How many people eat 11 slices of bread a day Mr Mallard? What about people who don’t eat bread at all?
If pregnant women are concerned about neural tube defects, surely they would buy some tablets that would deliver them the required amount of folic acid? That’s a much better option than expecting the government to mass-medicate the entire bread-eating population of New Zealand.
Good piece from Simon Cunliffe in today’s ODT:
http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/opinion/66338/who039s-not-using-their-loaves-debate-over-folate
So Trevor are you saying that the mass medication of the entire population to save possibly 40 babies a year is a good thing?
If you are then how about we mass medicate other foods with say contraceptives in order to prevent certain groups from breeding and bringing children into the world where they will be abused, bashed and killed by their caregivers?…probably about the same number affected.
A far more effective manner of medicating to prevent neural tube defects would have been to provide folate to all mothers who are pregnant each year.
You have certainly jumped the shark with this post.
@sean 14 Most women don’t know (and about half didn’t mean to be) that they are pregnant at the relevant time. Sean tell me why it is ok to put much more dangerous additives into bread eg salt sugar but not Vitamin B.
@ whaleoil see @ sean same story.
So you do support mass medication of the entire population to save just 40 babies a year.
Wouldn’t a better solution for much better costs be to ban abortion? That would save 18,000 babies a year not just 40.
If it is about saving babies surely that is a much bigger bang for buck?
Whaleoil
With tne ACT-led government stripping funding of therapists for special needs kids at the schools that care about such kids ..
The need for follate may be all the more imperative.
Flour milling strips bread of the follate and the benefits it brings. Why not insist that it be put back.
Could a similar right-wing argument be applied to iodine in salt?
Mr Mallard
Labour had nearly a decade to do this and yet failed. You are scare mongering and an appauling example of a bitter and twisted MP.
It is beyond belief to see you write “One of the responsibilities one has as a leader is to stand up against monied interests and for all New Zealanders” yet you were instrumental in supporting a ‘leader’ who allowed Winston Peters to defamatory and not needed to make point Trevor
If there is any shame it is with you. Long may you reside on the opposition benches.
Whale it is becoming clear to me that you have led a pretty protected life. The idea that you condemn families to losing babies, the trauma of making a choice around abortion or living with a kid whose life is too often miserable for the sake of adding a bit of vitamin b with the sugar, salt and iodeine is pretty sad.
“Labour had nearly a decade to do this and yet failed”
Um, except that Labour were in the process of doing it Hillary, which is what National’s “backdown” is all about.
@ Hillary – I agree we did take too long. That happened because the bakers agreed to fortify on a voluntary basis and then reneged.
The iodine-salt argument is falacious. I can choose non-iodised salt. Under this plan I would have been forced to take folate against my express wishes.
Also NZ lacks iodine in its soil. Whereas I can obtain folate from many sources including from supplements bought OTC.
This is mass medication at a cost that is simply ridiulous in the extreme for the benefit of so few.
I haven’t condemned any babies to losing their life Trevor, the person who decided to reef it out in an abortion condemned their life.
You still haven’t answered my question. If this is about saving babies lives, then why not ban abortion?
If we are talking about saving babies lives then lets have mass forced contraceptives in some areas of the country where there is a prevalence of child abuse, neglect and murder.
Trying to label John Key and National as baby killers is beneath you, but that is exactly what you are trying to do.
Some reading Trevor, clearly you are a bit light on the subject.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-484229/Adding-folic-acid-diets-recipe-disaster.html
Another thing to consider is that if we are to mass medicate in the interests of a few women who 1) have the potential to be pregnant or 2) don’t know their pregnant and 3) don’t have a balanced enough diet etc to get real folate (as opposed to the synthetic stuff (folic acid)) then why don’t we also decide that all women who are of child-bearing age be banned from purchasing or drinking alcohol? The potential risk of fetal alcohol issues is high (and costly to the child, family, society and the taxpayer).
At some point individual responsibility has to kick in. The State shouldn’t save every individual from poor choices, bad luck or genetic predisposition.
Folic acid was never going to be included in organic bread. So nobody would have been forced to have it.
Personal responsibility anyone ? If women are planning to have children then surely they can take folate supplements in preparation. I understand that it can several months at least for fertility to increase after stopping taking contraceptive medication so surely enough time to get prepared.
I am surprised there is so much focus on this relatively minor issue when they are much bigger problems facing New Zealand e.g. the obesity of the core public service.
Bryan Spondre
I still can’t decide whether this is deliberate ploy or a flukey hand on the part of the Government. This and other similar issues, which can play to the very core of the libertarianist persona – fears of govt. intrusion etc, blatantly ignore the fact that we are already mass medicated in many other ways.
By provoking some faux outrage at Vitamin-B’s inclusion in bread, (which can still be avoided by baking one’s own bread, a practice that should be embraced by libertarians), opponents are playing politics with an issue that if thwarted, will no doubt cost innocent lives.
If you really are opposed to mass-medication, you should stop buying chlorinated toothpaste and/or pasteurised/homogenised milk, because those two products are a form of mass medication, so to speak.
Yes but jarbury organic bread is generally a lot more expensive. It seems a strange thing to encourage the majority of the population to “opt out” of a measure that is intended for such a small part of the population – and to expect them to PAY more to “opt out”.
I think it makes a lot more sense to make it voluntary AND if there is a demand for it the bakers/supermarkets etc will provide bread fortified with folic acid (in much the same was as they do at the moment for women who want/believe soy and linseed will assist in menopausal symptoms etc).
I suppose the issue though is more about medicating those who generally choose not to help themselves. This is where the ‘pregnant or intending to be pregnant women will buy OTC folic acid” falls down. Let’s be honest, the measure of putting folic acid in bread is to address those people who generally choose not to (or can’t due to cost etc) help themselves. It’s still not a good enough argument to support the entire population to be exposed to folic acid in bread.
Trevor, It seems that there are conflicting opionions in relation to the addition of Folic acid causing a increased risk of cancer.
Can the Labour party state 100%, without any doubt whatsoever, that there is absoultley no reports indicating that there is an increased risk of cancer.
If there are reports – have they all been 100% discredited, and now there is a concencus in the scientific community that the addition of folic acid is 100% safe?
If there isnt can you please justify your position where your support of mass medication may end up killing people?
I guess its easier to just go with the headline – Babies to die.
Good grief. If the plan is to be done at all it should be the same as is done for iodised salt. You can buy iodised or non-iodised salt. Bread should be the same, a choice of folated or non-folated bread, and there should be clear labelling (like with salt where the labels are different colours). Most bread should be folated but if people specifically don’t want it (such as those who fear it may have health risks) they can seek out the non-folated options (which should not cost more than folated options).
However, I don’t believe that adding folic acid to bread will have the benefits that are being touted due to the amount of bread someone would have to eat for it to make that much difference. Parents who plan to get pregnant go out of their way to ensure the conditions are favourable to having healthy babies. Parents who get pregnant by accident really should have an oral contraceptive forcibly added to their diet instead in my opinion. It would solve many more problems than folating bread, such as burden on welfare, child abuse and increasing the criminal population.
Most of our societal problems are caused by the demise of the traditional family model (two parents together raising the children). Of course that would greatly diminish the Labour vote wouldn’t it.
Speaking of killing babies and the increase of abortions.
Did you know under the Labour government abortions increased from 15,501 a year to 18,382 pa. In 2003 it was even higher.
see http://www.abortionservices.org.nz
Thats over 55 additional babies terminated a week since labour were in power.
You should be ashamed.
Careful BK, don’t you know it’s ok to kill babies while they’re still in the womb, as long as you don’t smack the ones that make it out.
@jarbury “Folic acid was never going to be included in organic bread. So nobody would have been forced to have it.”
The kind of people who can afford to spend $5+ on a loaf of organic bread are likely to be the same ones who will be responsible enough to take folate in preparation for pregnancy. It’s the $1 a loaf white bread buyers that need to be targeted.
Elvis, that’s my point. People on lower incomes buying the $1 loaves would have got some of their required folic acid from their cheap bread. Those who didn’t want to be “mass medicated” could have chosen organic bread.
Where’s the problem?
“Babies to die”! What a disgraceful headline.
Whose babies, Trevor? Babies don’t just appear in maternity wards all on their own — they’re not just dropped their by stork. Those who are having these babies are responsible for their own diets, not the country’s bakers — and certainly not politicians who are simply short of a headline.
@jarbury” “Where’s the problem? Those who can only afford to spend a $1 on a loaf of bread will have zero choice and will be medicated because the socialist elites “know what is best”.
Josh, why should I be forced to buy organic bread at $5+ per loaf? I’m happy buying my usual $2.49 loaf of bread and I don’t want it folated. There’s the problem, you’re making the choice for me by only making expensive bread non-folated.
Those naughty bread-people, eh Uncle Trevor? I’ve always wondered why they sell bread people want to buy, why aren’t the selling the bread you want people to buy Uncle Trevor? You gave them a chance too, you said ‘put that stuff in voluntarily or we’ll make you do it’, and they still didn’t; who the hell do they think they are to not do as they are told Uncle Trevor? Geez, where do they think they live, a free country, you know, where people can make their own decisions about what they do and don’t eat? They must be punished Uncle Trevor, just wait till you are made to boss again, that’ll teach them not to be naughty
Trevor – can I suggest you post-moderate comments ? Your current moderation approach slows down the flow of the conversation. You can always ban anyone who oversteps the mark and in my experience that generally keeps everyone else in line.
Elvis Christ
Bryan we do post moderate except for first comments. I’ve been at select committee so not sure if there have been some system delays. Trevor
I would really like answers to my question above (it helps make an informed decision you see):
Can the Labour party state 100%, without any doubt whatsoever, that there is absoultley no reports indicating that there is an increased risk of cancer.
If there are reports – have they all been 100% discredited, and now there is a concencus in the scientific community that the addition of folic acid is 100% safe?
If there isnt can you please justify your position where your support of mass medication may end up killing people?
I will have to change my name so I am not associated with that other Hillary!
Some issues:
There are all sorts of suspicious additives already in cheap bread so adding a tiny tiny of a B vitamin – smaller than a grain of salt – that is actually quite good for you and is a natural part of whole wheat, seems quite sensible.
I wonder if those who are so scared of folate happily spread vegemite or marmite on their toast as a couple of smears provides the same as several slices of the fortified bread would.
On another aspect of this debate. We have a New Zealand Disability Strategy which ensures the rights of people with disabilities to participate in all aspects of citizenship – so I would appreciate it if we would stop talking about people ’suffering’ or not having a right to exist, or somehow being a tragedy and less than human, just because they may be born with a congenital impairment.
Trevor Mallards headline: “Key gutless under pressure – babies to die – abortions to increase”
What a terribly emotive misleading headline?
Bryan Spondre is asking Mallard to now moderate this thread in order to help keep people in line.
Trevor Mallard is responsible here for creating an emotive, misleading and irresponsible angle on what is one important issue.
If Mallard wanted informed and reasoned debate, would it not be reasonable to assume he would have started off without the emotive crapola?
Or is that too difficult?
That’s a good point. I’m sitting on the fence on this issue to be honest – don’t really have a strong opinion either way. What I do take issue with is people saying “there would have been no choice, we would have been FORCED to have this stuff” when that is simply not true.
People have a right to decide what does or does not go into their bread. I’m pleased that public opinion has influenced this decision. If a female is of childbearing age, then they can easily take a supplement. The people who are concerned can take the stuff and the people who don’t want to be medicated should have the right to say no.
“You can buy iodised or non-iodised salt. Bread should be the same, a choice of folated or non-folated bread, and there should be clear labelling (like with salt where the labels are different colours). Most bread should be folated but if people specifically don’t want it (such as those who fear it may have health risks) they can seek out the non-folated options (which should not cost more than folated options).”
Yes, thankyou!!!!!
Oh Dear another Hilary… and misses the point of the whole debate. If people want to spread marmite etc on their toast then it is of their choosing, and not as part of some grand delusional plan by the left to mass medicate citizens.
Oh and Mr Mallard by blocking my comments about Winston Peters and (a few words deleted. Hillary go back and have a look at Red Alert especially the tone. I tend to go a bit harder moderating supportive people but we do try and keep people on track rather than pretending they are on Kiwiblog or whaleoil. If you don’t like that then don’t bother commenting. Trevor ) seems to imply you don’t want free and frank comments. Then again you represent all the elements of Labour that resulted in your side losing the election. Why can we not be surprised.
I don’t agree that people who don’t want to be mass medicated would buy organic bread because we’re in a recession and many people need cheap food.
Trevor
That Hillary with two LLs is an imposter and not supportive of the left at all.
Whaleoil just got back to your comments re abortion. Reducing the number of abortions through pretty simple solutions is one that would be supported by most rational people on both sides of the right to life/chose debate.
Then there’s something wrong with the flour milling and it needs to be looked into and fixed so that important parts of our diet aren’t missed. Until then we should probably put that part of our diet back into it (B9 – it’s part of a good diet and is not medication).
Thanks for the clarification Trevor.
Elvis Christ
@MMM “I think it makes a lot more sense to make it voluntary AND if there is a demand for it the bakers/supermarkets etc will provide bread fortified with folic acid”
Agreed, unlike iodised salt or fluoridated water that benefit everyone folic acid is only going to benefit women are of breeding age, are not using contraception, and are having sex. The last criteria on it own eliminates 95% of married women
Bryan, doesn’t it make you wonder why they didn’t decide to put it in alcopops instead?
Sue Kedgley was against putting folate into bread a couple of weeks ago on Q&A. Yet you say that she pressurised for it to be included. Something has changed and I think it is the fact that a report came out saying that it wasn’t safe.
@LabRat: good point. Perhaps in KFC & Maccas would work ?
@felix Yes thats right but she didn’t bother reading it and especially the opinion of people like Gluckman
It is silly to pay for advice from a medical specialist, and then ignore the advice altogether.
So John Key hired Peter Gluckman his advisor for science and medicine etc…
See correction in post re costings.
Makes it quite expensive not to plan your family doesn’t it?
On the taxpayer – yes especially if simple fortification doesn’t happen