<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Stupid, short-sighted and small-minded</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/</link>
	<description>A blog written by Labour MPs</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:29:08 +1300</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Enviroschools forever&#8230;listen to the children &#171; Red Alert</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/comment-page-1/#comment-7210</link>
		<dc:creator>Enviroschools forever&#8230;listen to the children &#171; Red Alert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 03:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=1496#comment-7210</guid>
		<description>[...] for Sustainability positions have been axed by Anne Tolley and her government. I posted on this issue a few weeks ago and anger is steadily growing around the country. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for Sustainability positions have been axed by Anne Tolley and her government. I posted on this issue a few weeks ago and anger is steadily growing around the country.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Another one bites the dust &#171; Red Alert</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/comment-page-1/#comment-5843</link>
		<dc:creator>Another one bites the dust &#171; Red Alert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 04:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=1496#comment-5843</guid>
		<description>[...] away in the Budget were government cuts to the Enviroschools Programme. Clare Curran has already posted on this issue, but I&#8217;ve been struck how much the cuts are resonating on the North Shore, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] away in the Budget were government cuts to the Enviroschools Programme. Clare Curran has already posted on this issue, but I&#8217;ve been struck how much the cuts are resonating on the North Shore, [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stuart Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/comment-page-1/#comment-4377</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 07:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=1496#comment-4377</guid>
		<description>Well thank you Clare, may I point out as I did previously that there is not even a scrap of evidence whatsoever to show that the environmental &#039;crisis&#039; that we find ourselves in is anthropogenic and as such means that teaching based upon this is teaching pure speculation. For all we know we may play no part in global warming (don&#039;t quote scientific consensus because we all know that isn&#039;t true in regards to humanity as a cause of global warming, only that there is global warming). So what is there to teach children? &quot;We may possibly cause some large scale environmental damage, but nobody really knows, and so here is what people need to do in order to prevent this&#039; if we are causing the damage but then again at this stage it is just as likely that its a waste of time and effort.&quot; A rational being would be forced to take no such action. So just to clarify seeing as we have no hard evidence one way or the other then the answer to your question is yes; teaching children a curriculum based upon what is expressed by yourself and others here is a very very bad thing.
 Also even if we assume there is an anthropogenic element to it, all of our best estimates place CO2 as being a minor consideration; as something to worry about only in the eventuality that all of the far worse (and vastly easier to solve) problems have be fixed and we still find ourselves &#039;in the hole&#039;. That being said (again I might add) I stand by my earlier statement as I have quashed any possible argument you could make for the kind of &#039;environmental education&#039; alluded to in this thread.
 Oh and one final point, there is no difference between the left and the right other than in what way they want to control the populace. You accuse Key of being Authoritarian, I agree but I must also point out he is such to a far lesser extent than Clark.

Also please find the post I refer to in the above copied below (one that was ignored by the people here obviously because they could not argue against it) 

&quot;Topcat; I suggest you read my post as then you will see the qualifications for that statement and in doing so see why your criticism is a complete and utter ‘fail’. Even in the conditional that global warming in anthropogenic and CO2 has the worst negative effect (while the other pollutants are considered to have the least negative impact) it is simply cheaper and more effective to ignore it and focus on a raft of other ‘global warming’ gases (these are cheap and extremely easy to eliminate and would result in a MUCH BIGGER positive environmental impact than if you totally eliminated man’s CO2 emissions). So even if we find global warming is anthropogenic we find that your insistence we focus on CO2 to any degree prior to the elimination of these other pollutants constitutes a misunderstanding of my post and of the ‘problem’. Finally the cost benefit analysis takes into account loss of land at the worst estimate (highest loss of land per period) but does not account for sentimentality (and nor should it).
Also I would be remiss if I didn’t point out the inherent fallacies in your argument that prevent me from taking it seriously, which include but are not limited to, ‘arumentum ad misericordium’ and the ‘Post hoc ergo propter hoc’ fallacies. Each of which on their own renders any argument you make from their basis irrational and therefore without substance.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well thank you Clare, may I point out as I did previously that there is not even a scrap of evidence whatsoever to show that the environmental &#8216;crisis&#8217; that we find ourselves in is anthropogenic and as such means that teaching based upon this is teaching pure speculation. For all we know we may play no part in global warming (don&#8217;t quote scientific consensus because we all know that isn&#8217;t true in regards to humanity as a cause of global warming, only that there is global warming). So what is there to teach children? &#8220;We may possibly cause some large scale environmental damage, but nobody really knows, and so here is what people need to do in order to prevent this&#8217; if we are causing the damage but then again at this stage it is just as likely that its a waste of time and effort.&#8221; A rational being would be forced to take no such action. So just to clarify seeing as we have no hard evidence one way or the other then the answer to your question is yes; teaching children a curriculum based upon what is expressed by yourself and others here is a very very bad thing.<br />
 Also even if we assume there is an anthropogenic element to it, all of our best estimates place CO2 as being a minor consideration; as something to worry about only in the eventuality that all of the far worse (and vastly easier to solve) problems have be fixed and we still find ourselves &#8216;in the hole&#8217;. That being said (again I might add) I stand by my earlier statement as I have quashed any possible argument you could make for the kind of &#8216;environmental education&#8217; alluded to in this thread.<br />
 Oh and one final point, there is no difference between the left and the right other than in what way they want to control the populace. You accuse Key of being Authoritarian, I agree but I must also point out he is such to a far lesser extent than Clark.</p>
<p>Also please find the post I refer to in the above copied below (one that was ignored by the people here obviously because they could not argue against it) </p>
<p>&#8220;Topcat; I suggest you read my post as then you will see the qualifications for that statement and in doing so see why your criticism is a complete and utter ‘fail’. Even in the conditional that global warming in anthropogenic and CO2 has the worst negative effect (while the other pollutants are considered to have the least negative impact) it is simply cheaper and more effective to ignore it and focus on a raft of other ‘global warming’ gases (these are cheap and extremely easy to eliminate and would result in a MUCH BIGGER positive environmental impact than if you totally eliminated man’s CO2 emissions). So even if we find global warming is anthropogenic we find that your insistence we focus on CO2 to any degree prior to the elimination of these other pollutants constitutes a misunderstanding of my post and of the ‘problem’. Finally the cost benefit analysis takes into account loss of land at the worst estimate (highest loss of land per period) but does not account for sentimentality (and nor should it).<br />
Also I would be remiss if I didn’t point out the inherent fallacies in your argument that prevent me from taking it seriously, which include but are not limited to, ‘arumentum ad misericordium’ and the ‘Post hoc ergo propter hoc’ fallacies. Each of which on their own renders any argument you make from their basis irrational and therefore without substance.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clare Curran</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/comment-page-1/#comment-4359</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare Curran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 04:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=1496#comment-4359</guid>
		<description>@Blip, sorry didn&#039;t understand a word of your post
@Mark M, if you&#039;re hung up on the word sustainability and can&#039;t get past it to consider the real issues then you&#039;ve got a problem mate. How about coming up with a new word? Seriously! 
@Phil, it&#039;s called maths and Labour took it (and takes it) very seriously</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Blip, sorry didn&#8217;t understand a word of your post<br />
@Mark M, if you&#8217;re hung up on the word sustainability and can&#8217;t get past it to consider the real issues then you&#8217;ve got a problem mate. How about coming up with a new word? Seriously!<br />
@Phil, it&#8217;s called maths and Labour took it (and takes it) very seriously</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clare Curran</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/comment-page-1/#comment-4358</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare Curran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 03:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=1496#comment-4358</guid>
		<description>Not very constructive contributions Stuart, Swampy and Hooligan. Environmental education is practical, it&#039;s part of our curriculum you&#039;ll see on the Minstry of Education&#039;s website  that a series of achievement standards for Education for Sustainability at levels 2 and 3 are aligned with The New Zealand Curriculum. 

They may be used within dedicated year-long sustainability courses or be incorporated into such senior subjects as biology, geography, economics, and horticulture as well as within learning areas such as technology and the arts.

The funding cuts made by the National Government will ultimately impact on this down the track and also the ability of enviroschools to deliver the sort of information and programmes for primary schools (and secondary schools) that result in long term behaviours that benefit the environment and the community. Is that a bad thing? 

The most worrying part of it all though was Nick Smith&#039;s throw away line as mentioned in this post. For me that shows an amazing and somewhat horrifying insight into how this government thinks. And will ultimately act.

So many of you (Swampy, Stuart and Hooligan and your ilk) carried on about the nanny state this and nanny state that under Labour. Well under National we have an authoritarian, punishing father figure emerging who will tell us how to behave, not to think for ourselves and won&#039;t provide much encouragement and support. And if we get it wrong, well watch out...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not very constructive contributions Stuart, Swampy and Hooligan. Environmental education is practical, it&#8217;s part of our curriculum you&#8217;ll see on the Minstry of Education&#8217;s website  that a series of achievement standards for Education for Sustainability at levels 2 and 3 are aligned with The New Zealand Curriculum. </p>
<p>They may be used within dedicated year-long sustainability courses or be incorporated into such senior subjects as biology, geography, economics, and horticulture as well as within learning areas such as technology and the arts.</p>
<p>The funding cuts made by the National Government will ultimately impact on this down the track and also the ability of enviroschools to deliver the sort of information and programmes for primary schools (and secondary schools) that result in long term behaviours that benefit the environment and the community. Is that a bad thing? </p>
<p>The most worrying part of it all though was Nick Smith&#8217;s throw away line as mentioned in this post. For me that shows an amazing and somewhat horrifying insight into how this government thinks. And will ultimately act.</p>
<p>So many of you (Swampy, Stuart and Hooligan and your ilk) carried on about the nanny state this and nanny state that under Labour. Well under National we have an authoritarian, punishing father figure emerging who will tell us how to behave, not to think for ourselves and won&#8217;t provide much encouragement and support. And if we get it wrong, well watch out&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stuart Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/comment-page-1/#comment-4162</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 04:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=1496#comment-4162</guid>
		<description>Well Swampy that is the only way that people can be brought up believing that government control works; brainwash them into thinking it is ok and the even the best thing to do and then sit back and enjoy the lunacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Swampy that is the only way that people can be brought up believing that government control works; brainwash them into thinking it is ok and the even the best thing to do and then sit back and enjoy the lunacy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/comment-page-1/#comment-4069</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=1496#comment-4069</guid>
		<description>&quot;Draco T Bastard says:
July 20, 2009 at 12:52 pm&quot;

Ah OK Draco. You&#039;re telling us that the role of schools is to teach left wing propaganda, is it? You&#039;re up there with John Minto opposing things like the Primary Enterprise Programme, are you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Draco T Bastard says:<br />
July 20, 2009 at 12:52 pm&#8221;</p>
<p>Ah OK Draco. You&#8217;re telling us that the role of schools is to teach left wing propaganda, is it? You&#8217;re up there with John Minto opposing things like the Primary Enterprise Programme, are you?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/comment-page-1/#comment-4068</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=1496#comment-4068</guid>
		<description>Which existing parts of the curriculum have schools had to drop to make way for the enviroschools measures?

In the time of the Labour government schools have had more and more of these PC measures foisted upon them as requirements which take away more and more of core basics as well as generating mountains of paperwork.

Why does Labour want the State to teach so many things that are parents&#039; responsibilities (after all, children spend less than a quarter of their time at school)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which existing parts of the curriculum have schools had to drop to make way for the enviroschools measures?</p>
<p>In the time of the Labour government schools have had more and more of these PC measures foisted upon them as requirements which take away more and more of core basics as well as generating mountains of paperwork.</p>
<p>Why does Labour want the State to teach so many things that are parents&#8217; responsibilities (after all, children spend less than a quarter of their time at school)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: hooligan</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/comment-page-1/#comment-3889</link>
		<dc:creator>hooligan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=1496#comment-3889</guid>
		<description>Dearest Che, &#039;Wound up&#039;? Oh yes, passionately averse to the idea that you &amp; your mates get to decide what my children do and don’t learn. You on the other hand can teach your children anything that you want, growing veggies, harvesting urine, praying to the sun god, jumping up &amp; down while clapping hands; hell even teach them Keynesian/Marxian  economics if you really want to…knock yourself out. Just leave the rest of alone, (or at least try persuasion instead of force) is that too much to ask?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dearest Che, &#8216;Wound up&#8217;? Oh yes, passionately averse to the idea that you &amp; your mates get to decide what my children do and don’t learn. You on the other hand can teach your children anything that you want, growing veggies, harvesting urine, praying to the sun god, jumping up &amp; down while clapping hands; hell even teach them Keynesian/Marxian  economics if you really want to…knock yourself out. Just leave the rest of alone, (or at least try persuasion instead of force) is that too much to ask?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stuart Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://blog.labour.org.nz/2009/07/20/stupid-short-sighted-and-small-minded/comment-page-1/#comment-3878</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 05:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labour.org.nz/?p=1496#comment-3878</guid>
		<description>Topcat; I suggest you read my post as then you will see the qualifications for that statement and in doing so see why your criticism is a complete and utter &#039;fail&#039;. Even in the conditional that global warming in anthropogenic and CO2 has the worst negative effect (while the other pollutants are considered to have the least negative impact) it is simply cheaper and more effective to ignore it and focus on a raft of other &#039;global warming&#039; gases (these are cheap and extremely easy to eliminate and would result in a MUCH BIGGER positive environmental impact than if you totally eliminated man&#039;s CO2 emissions). So even if we find global warming is anthropogenic we find that your insistence we focus on CO2 to any degree prior to the elimination of these other pollutants constitutes a misunderstanding of my post and of the &#039;problem&#039;. Finally the cost benefit analysis takes into account loss of land at the worst estimate (highest loss of land per period) but does not account for sentimentality (and nor should it).
 Also I would be remiss if I didn&#039;t point out the inherent fallacies in your argument that prevent me from taking it seriously, which include but are not limited to, &#039;arumentum ad misericordium&#039; and the &#039;Post hoc ergo propter hoc&#039; fallacies. Each of which on their own renders any argument you make from their basis irrational and therefore without substance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Topcat; I suggest you read my post as then you will see the qualifications for that statement and in doing so see why your criticism is a complete and utter &#8216;fail&#8217;. Even in the conditional that global warming in anthropogenic and CO2 has the worst negative effect (while the other pollutants are considered to have the least negative impact) it is simply cheaper and more effective to ignore it and focus on a raft of other &#8216;global warming&#8217; gases (these are cheap and extremely easy to eliminate and would result in a MUCH BIGGER positive environmental impact than if you totally eliminated man&#8217;s CO2 emissions). So even if we find global warming is anthropogenic we find that your insistence we focus on CO2 to any degree prior to the elimination of these other pollutants constitutes a misunderstanding of my post and of the &#8216;problem&#8217;. Finally the cost benefit analysis takes into account loss of land at the worst estimate (highest loss of land per period) but does not account for sentimentality (and nor should it).<br />
 Also I would be remiss if I didn&#8217;t point out the inherent fallacies in your argument that prevent me from taking it seriously, which include but are not limited to, &#8216;arumentum ad misericordium&#8217; and the &#8216;Post hoc ergo propter hoc&#8217; fallacies. Each of which on their own renders any argument you make from their basis irrational and therefore without substance.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

