Comments on: Read the Chief Justice’s speech before you judge it

By: H. Fee

H. Fee — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:44:02 +0000

Actually Tanya, the reason National won the last election is because they have such a large base of ignorant and uninformed supporters who are adverse to scientific evidence and research. The flaw in your argument, and hence your thinking, is that New Zealand has been soft on crime. It hasn’t. New Zealand has been tough on crime and it’s clearly not working. We have been steadily locking people up for longer and for less serious offences, and we have been putting youth offenders in adult prisons and, unrealistically, expecting them to learn their lesson and become model citizens. The problem with National, and its supporters, is that it takes such a narrow minded view of the justice system as being solely about punishment, when the true focus should be on prevention. Why would we pay $100,000 a year to keep someone in prison if we could prevent them from being there in the first place?

My question for you Tanya is, faced with overwhelming evidence and research that longer, tougher prison sentences do not reduce crime (just look at the United States for evidence of that), while shorter community based sentences do, why do you still favour the former? Until people like you are willing to accept, or at least consider, the arguments that have been substantiated time and time again by research and study, and reject or at least challenge the unsupported opinion and rhetoric of people like Garth McVicar, nothing in this country will change with respect to crime and crime rates. One of the problems in New Zealand is that our justice system is owned, and our justice policy hence directed, by people who believe they know better than all of the experts put together. People whose stubbornness and political affiliations blind them to such a large degree that they do more harm then good. We would not tolerate such a situation in our health system, and nor should we tolerate it in our justice system.

By: Robespierre

Robespierre — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:42:20 +0000

Thanks to you and Charles Chauvel for speaking out in defence of Sian Elias. It is great to see that you two are now Labour’s justice spokespersons. Gives me real hope that Labour will be putting in place the right sort of progressive policies on this issue in future rather than playing to the redneck lobby as the Party has mistakenly done in the past. All power to you.

By: Kiwipolitico » Blog Archive » That’s good advice

Kiwipolitico » Blog Archive » That’s good advice — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:22:06 +0000

[...] the Chief Justice’s speech before you judge it. – Lianne Dalziel, Labour Justice Spokesperson, 18 July [...]

By: Lianne Dalziel

Lianne Dalziel — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:24:37 +0000

Thanks for your thoughtful responses to this important debate. For those who have commented on Simon Power’s reaction to the Chief Justice’s speech, I simply observe that the government happily responds to the Chief Youth Court Judge and the Chief Family Court Judge when they speak publicly and engage in debate on policy issues in their fields of expertise.

@Sonny Thomas – I spoke to Damien this week to follow up on your question. He said it took 30 years for the accord to really deliver the results they have achieved. That means I won’t be in Parliament when the benefits are realised but we have to start.
@Tanya – Your comments require a whole new blog of its own. I have been studying the underlying drivers of crime as part of my role as Labour’s spokesperson on Justice, but have taken an interest ever since I was first elected to Parliament and was appointed as the associate spokesperson serving with Rt Hon David Lange. I read both Roper Reports and the Victims Taskforce Report on Women’s Experience of Domestic Violence and I was hooked on prevention (not as an alternative to punishment for offending, but taking steps to reduce offending in the first place). Your faith in National’s Minister of Justice is good, because you will be pleased to know that I believe Simon Power will promote changes to his colleagues that will begin to address the drivers of crime – early intervention is the key and the earlier the better.
@George D – I am leading the renewal of our justice policy. Labour’s policy making process is that 5 remits from our regional conferences are submitted to our Annual Conference and I am working with the relevant policy committee finalising those now. I am also engaging with researchers, practitioners, advocacy groups and others to get broader input.
@Kerry Thomas – well said! Appeasement is an issue. We were elected to government on the back of a referendum calling for tougher responses to crime. It is time the public were trusted with the truth about ‘getting what they ask for’. Tanya’s response, although unusual for this blog, is very representative of the vocal minority fueled by organisations who describe themselves as having something ’sensible’ to add to the debate. That’s why the Chief Justice’s call for community education and an accord with the media is so vital.

By: Kerry Thomas

Kerry Thomas — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:46:11 +0000

What happened to free speech? Also part of the duty of a professional is to tell the people who are paying them if, in their professional researched judgement, their employers are making a mistake. (Her employers are the people of NZ not just the National Cabinet). Dame Elias is doing just that. She should be commended.
Labour and National with their punitive approach to appease some strident one issue types spent a lot of money on incarceration which would have been better spent on early intervention and help to at risk families, mental health services, literacy and numeracy intervention in schools, special education and psycological services.
Social cohesion, social programs and fairness in the Scandinavian countries results in a lot less crime than our punitive approach.
Many prisoners are illiterate, in poor mental health or marginalised. I know some people are just socio paths and they should be locked up and the key thrown away, (Corporate assett strippers) but many are young people who have made stupid choices, mentally ill who may be fine with proper support, people who have made stupid mistakes or people who have failed to gain a place and recognition in our society. Many may possibly never re-offend with the right support. We know that if they go through the prison system they will most likely re-offend.
Then we could have more money to lock up real dangers to society such as repeat rapists and murderers for life.

By: George D

George D — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 06:38:00 +0000

So, Clare and Lianne, will Labour be changing its crime and punishment policies?

By: D-Low

D-Low — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 06:11:06 +0000

Wow Tanya, way to destroy both Liane and Dame Sian Elias’ arguments! While they have provided well-balanced, researched arguments with examples such as Finland, you have absolutely thrashed their arguments with “common sense” and “I believe” statements. Why you even bothered posting on this thread I will never know.

By: Tanya

Tanya — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:43:39 +0000

Hi Kaine, I believe that a lot of crime out there is caused by people who just refuse to behave as the rest of society does, that have no respect for anyone but themselves, who don’t seem to care that criminal antics are self serving and results in innocent people being effected, I am tired of the left excusing criminials, trying to understand them, shifting the responsibility onto society and away from the self. If someone murdered or mained a friend of yours or a family member say, wouldn’t you want justice done? I’m with Simon Power and National on crime, NZ has been soft on crime for years, but the offending has not stopped, it’s become worse. So soft on crime is not working either – maybe there is a happy medium somewhere!

By: Kaine T

Kaine T — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:18:03 +0000

So Tanya, this still doesn’t explain how you will, or those who think like you will, stem the causation or occurrence of crime… you can lock people up as much as you won’t as far as I care, but that doesn’t stop crime. Murder still happens in states where there is a death penalty, clearly, punishment alone isn’t enough.

By: Tanya

Tanya — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:12:08 +0000

Good on Simon Power for speaking out with common sense. Look at our crime rate, and especially the escalation of unprovoked, violent crimes. Cause of crime? Lack of morals and personal responsibility, no respect for right and wrong, no respect for people or decent society. Does Labour still not realise that the public are generally fed up to the back teeth with crime. Just because our prisons are full does not mean we should just dispense with justice and shrug our shoulders. This is partly why National won such a big portion of the vote in last years election, many of us out here are tired of the wet soft on crime approach. Remember the NZ of yesteryear? Safe as houses, don’t lock your front door, give up your seat to the elderly, respect and Christian values.